longbeachgary

<.<>

Stickney

I know fairly little about Comp Cyclist -- but it seems clear that they know that high-end TI still has a niche. Likely, they know their customers and know that Merlin still has excellent brand history.

Seems like a match made in heaven. It will be interesting to see where the frames are made.

VT Biker

Well - I am praying your job gets outsourced quickly. I happen to care about those in the US bike industry, especially the fabrication side, as I respect their craftsmanship. Trade imbalances are what got us into our economic situation, so you should care IMHO. But since you don't, you are one of the few in the US that I might relish in the schadenfreude if you were to lose your house and livelihood that you spent years developing.

surgeonstone

I have the Lunaris, the compact version of the Cielo, and absolutely love it. I must say though it seems the reason for the composite seems somewhat off in todays market.

surgeonstone

Smart policy. My LBS is a cervelo dealer. Top quality shop all around and staffed with dedicated adults passionate about cycling. You want a cervelo, be assured you will not buy the wrong size and complain.

fmw

I haven't been in Proform for a while. Looks like he dropped Litespeed in favor of Cervelo and Scott. It's a great little bike shop.

echappist

Not that this attitude is constructive in the first place, but let's assume it is. Even then, you obviously glossed over the part where he voted with his money and bought a Lynskey. How many of the s!htty frame from Taiwan and China are low-quality crowd actually has a frame made in the US?

Unlike some of the xenophobes on this board, i really don't think the quality is that much different. Almost all carbon bikes are made in Taiwan or China, and we haven't heard anything akin to the ethylene glycol or melamine poisoning. Good QC goes a long way to ensure that. If i were to get another carbon bike (say a TT rig or something), chances are, i won't care about its provenance because i can't afford the high prices of a Parlee or a Serotta. That said, i currently have a new Lynskey Cooper sitting in my living room, waiting to be built up.

surgeonstone

And how did you know I was talking of Proform (I was). Yes a great shop with the very best mechanics I have had the pleasure of working with.

surgeonstone

Nice collection of bikes.

VT Biker

I have no xenophobic feelings about products made in Asia. I just have an issue with cavalier attitudes about the outsourcing of others' jobs.

echappist

Sorry, should have been more clear. Your post is not xenophobic. Some of the other ones (i won't call out which) definitely are.

Point here is that I don't think he's being cavalieric about outsourcing, rather, he's being realistic. ABG's grip on titanium frame building has slipped so much (most likely as a result of a conscious choice), that they are no longer even making repairs on older Ti frames and will instead offer a carbon frame as a replacement. It'd doubtable that CC could do any worse even if they do move productions off shore.

That said, i'd like to see Merlin restored to its former glory, and there's a very good reason why i went with the price premium and bought a Cooper over a bikesdirect. But at the end of the day, not everyone has that luxury to spend $300 more on a Lynskey frame when there's a cheaper alternative available, and it's presumptuous to label those who do save that $300 as inconsiderate when it comes to out sourcing.

guadzilla

Charming. I, OTOH, have no ill will towards you for disagreeing with me on something, and hope all stays well for you and your family.

You make a lot of assumptions about a lot of things, and quite a few of them are wrong. Knee jerk reflexive lashing out instead of trying to make an effort to understand the opposing point of view FTW, eh?

No, but apparently, in your little lashing-out-hissy-fit, you forgot to read the rest of my post (or maybe critical thinking was too difficult, compared to lashing out). Protectionism is NOT the best way forward economically, period and affects more jobs/earnings in the long run.

V.

guadzilla

Here is the second part of what I wrote, which VT Biker seems incapable of understanding: "I can bet that overall, at some point, the greater volume of bikes sold by CC than the previous incarnation of Merlin, even if made in Asia, will probably contribute more to the US economy/jobs."

Who contributes more to the US economy, you think - Lynskey, with their made-in-US bikes or Specialized, with their made-in-China bikes?

There is an economic value chain, and manufacture is only one small portion of that, and the US has stopped being a manufacturing-centric economy for about 30 years now, and it has done quite well for itself despite that. But hey, dont let ignorance prevent anyone from having an opinion, even if it is wrong.

echappist

V, i agree with most of what you say, but i don't think the post to which you are replying is a hissy, xenophobic fit (at least not xenophobic); there are other ones in this thread that fits the mold, though. That said, there's one point with which i happen to disagree.

Warning: macroeconomics rant ahead.

I actually happen to disagree conditionally with this one. Not when China (hey look, it's the country in which i was born) is manipulating currencies and providing subsidies seen and unseen trying to get rich while mostly disregarding whatever externalities these policies may have (often at a cost to their own people). There are a myriad of underlying causes for this, but the main one is an advanced form of "Bread and Circus" to keep the most foment-prone populace content in its material possessions and occupied by jobs so that they won't ask too many questions about the governmental policies that have given China a Gini Index that would put quite a few banana republics to shame. Without some sort of protectionism on the part of the U.S. government, no country can compete with this sort of handicap. To note, office of the Trade Representative gives the following numbers between Commie China and the U.S. for 2008: import from China ($348B), export to China ($86B), net deficit of $262B.

Taiwan, where most of the bikes we buy are made, is a wholly separate issue: import from Taiwan ($44B), export to Taiwan ($32B), net deficit of $12B. There is obviously still quite a bit of out sourcing to Taiwan, but Taiwan has grown so much richer in the past 20 years it's become a lot more expensive to do business there. Eventually, i'd think Taiwan will become very much like Hong Kong, and here are the numbers for the mostly autonomous region: Import from HK ($14B), export to HK ($28B), net surplus of $13B. Today, goods made in HK is considered top quality goods where, and goods produced in TW are also getting there. When that market has matured enough to be able to afford items from the U.S. and to be associated with top quality, off shoring is no longer going to save anyone money. As such, the need of protectionist barriers are not needed here.

I'd also venture to say that transitioning to a mostly service oriented economy probably won't fit the U.S. that well. Smaller countries with an extremely well-educated populace (e.g. Singapore) can pull it off, but not a country large enough and with only 30% of its population has a 4-year degree. For those 70% of the population (and many of the 30% without marketable skills), the only service jobs available are simply not that attractive.

[/macro econ rant]

Speaking of Singapore, has anyone seen the cost of a Ti bike from Bike Soul? At cost of $1750 for one and $2400 (albeit a frameset) for the other, these prices are no longer competitive with what Lynskey offers. As Taiwan develops, frames from there will reach those types of prices in the near future. As for Commie China, that's a wholly different story as there are masses (i.e. at least 400B peasants) looking to work for at a higher wage than at sustenance levels they get toiling in the fields. Although they won't be anywhere near skilled enough to be building a bike frame, the overall low wages will ensure that even the skilled labors are still cheap enough so that frames will still be relatively cheap.

Fleabiscuit

Great post McJumbo. You added some well needed substance to this thread.

Did anyone see the Lynskey Cooper with 105 for sale direct from Lynskey yesterday (St. Paddy's day sale) for $1,999??? I almost pulled the trigger even though I don't need a bike and I'm saving my pennies for a Powertap. That's a great price for a complete bike from a great company. I've seen the Cooper in person and, even though it's Lynskey's entry level bike, it is very nice. Lightweight, stiff, that magical Ti ride. Someday I will have a Lynskey!

echappist

^^

Few caveats, as i learned this the hard way.

-It's no longer that light weight. The older (2009-2010) Coopers was quoted as 2.7lbs for a medium. Lynskey no longer provides weight for their bikes, and i doubt the higher-level bikes have gotten heavier, but my Cooper in size small is around 3-3.1lbs. Still not bad given i'm not a weight weenie, but just something to think about.

-OTOH, I am an aero weenie, which is why i bought a small (HT of 13cm) to go with a 130mm -17 stem. All Lynskey frames, save for the Helix-OS and custom made, require headset in the style of the Chris King Nothread Set. Most headset that like that will add a good 3cm to the effective heat tube length. I have a FSA Orbix MX installed, and as of now, the effective HT is actually about 0.5cm taller than what i have on my C'dale six13 (14.6cm + 0.5cm of headset stack). I may eventually bite the bullet and get a Cane Creek AER as the overall stack height is 2cm, giving an effective HT that is 0.5cm shorter than my C'dale, but any racer who want a large saddle-to-bar drop should size down at least one to compensate for the headset stack.

runningDoc

McJumbo which way is better for the US economy?

1. the toyota/bmw/honda way where they actually imported the manufacturing plants here on the US to produce the cars we drive - but most of the profits go back to a foreign company.

2. the cervelo/trek/cannondale/specialized way where the majority of manufacturing is done in china/taiwan and most of the profits go back to a domestic company?

I'm just curious and not baiting or anything. Seriously I'm just curious.

For me CC's acquisition of merlin = stick a (titanium) fork into US made Ti frames from merlin. Merlins will no longer be produced on US soil.

But, it may mean that CC will offer a fully made to measure "custom" Ti frame with the Merlin badge and backed by CC's great reputation. Which could be an awesome thing especially if its affordable (which i suspect the price point will be).

echappist

To be honest, i don't know, as i just pretend to be part of intelligentsia by reading the Financial Times here and there. That said, either one of the options (assuming we are talking about manufacturing done in Taiwan, not mainland China) listed is a lot better than doing business with a country that manipulates currency and subsidizes manufacturing.

And please, don't confuse Taiwan and China. Totally different governments and totally different economic policies.

PS. Despite my zaftig figure by cycling standards, i'm not jumbo

guadzilla

I dont think it was xenophobic. It WAS, however, a hissy fit - lashing out and wishing me to be jobless/homeless b/c he didnt bother reading the rest of what I wrote and jumped to conclusions.

Sadly for him, I am retired and it requires an effort on my part to stay that way, as I keep getting ever-more-lucrative offers to return into the world of employment, but I found him wishing ill on me & my family to be extremely offensive and in poor taste.

Well, I conditionally agree with that as well.. I agree with you that free trade only works if it is free on both sides - and that government subsidies (dont get me started on Huaweii) and protectionism on one hand skews the system. Some protectionism on the other end does tend to make it a "level playing field" but it is no longer the best field to play in, for either side.

As an aside, I find general trade deficit numbers by themselves to only present an incomplete picture, especially in the context of arguing against the ills of outsourcing (not saying that you are doing that above, mind you) as these numbers don't take into account the gains provided by more efficient use of the $$$ saved as a result of outsourcing.

The transitional period is definitely painful, no denying that - however, I very strongly feel that in the medium to long term, it is beneficial to the economy OVERALL. You are correct, though: "beneficial" does not take into account distribution of wealth, either and often does lead to an increase in income disparity. This has been shown in several developing countries that have rapidly opened up their economies - India in 00s as an example: 8-10% GDP growth, and significant drop in real income for a large percentage of people.

I am a very strong believer in letting money go where it is utilized most efficiently - and that this has the most benefits for the most number of people. However, I also agree that there is no real "correct" answer when it comes to macroeconomics, and this topic has been debated significantly here and elsewhere.

In any case, my earlier point was to say that just b/c it is made in US doesnt mean it is always economically beneficial to the US. As a very extreme example to make my point: let's assume Merlin made 20 frames a year and that kept 1 person employed. If Habcycles imports and sells 2000 frames a year, that may result in 3-4 people gaining jobs. And the money that people save on their frame can lead to more orders for custom wheels from Psimet, etc. etc.

In different terms - I can sell 20 units of a product made @ $100 apiece domestically and selling for $200. I can sell 100 units of the product made @ $50 overseas and selling for $100. That's $2000 being pumped into the domestic economy from the sale of the product in the first case vs $5,000 in the second case. And atleast 20 buyers also save $100 each - which they will spend on other things. Which is better?

Given that Merlin wasnt exactly a thriving bike brand doing a large volume, I do think that even if CC does outsource production to Freedonia or Sylvania, I think it is probably going to be a net gain for the US economy. Simply looking at where a product is manufactured doesnt always tell the full tale. That was my little point.

Getting back to more pleasant topics (such as the impending arrival of my Lynskey Sportive frame in a few weeks - due to ship Apr 13) - 3.3lb for a frame? Ouch, that's a fair bit heavier than I was hoping. I suppose it is the straight-gauge tubing that does it? And I do hope the frame is stiffer than my Ritchey Breakaway, which is what I am riding here in Oman.

Cheers,
V.

FogVilleLad

+1

It's always political economy.

echappist

3.1lbs, not 3.3

And if it's not stiffer, i hear S&S couplers will add to the stiffness of the frame at a cost of 1lb or something.

guadzilla

3.1? Ah, that's ok. I dont feel bad for ordering relatively weight-weenie parts for it then

Psimet2001 

Many of you know how I like to jump into these kind of debates....but I'll try to hold back. Cyclists vote with their money and have been doing it for a long time. Ones that advocate buying a particular product because of somehow perceived benefits to the "greater good" of a locale are nice and well intentioned, but almost always sorely disappointed in the end result.

The fact is that the high end of the market is littered with affluent typically older men. Most of them because affluent by NOT over-spending, by working deals, etc. You haven't lived until you have watched a self made multi-millionaire who could wipe his ass with $100 bills if he wanted spend weeks hand-wringing whether or not he should buy wheels from his team owner and sponsor or buy some back factory cast offs from china to save <$50.

People that want to support good things with their money typically don't have enough of it to ever really make a difference and those with it have it because they do what they can to save it.

Speaking as an OEM - your only option is to provide a service/product that people want at a competitive price. period. novel concept eh? Anything else is fluff or marketing which won't hold water on the small scale over the long run.

guadzilla

That sums it up. Anything else is entitlement.

Btw, Rob, you owe me a reply on my Quarq email from yesterday. I'm getting it