Tourist in MSN

Only one of my indexed bikes has friction downtube for front, when I built up that bike six years ago I was not sure what I would use for front, used a brifter for rear, and for temporary purposes used a friction downtube for front. But now six years later, that temporary plan is becoming more permanent every day.

The rest of my friction front shifters are all bar end shifter bikes.

When I built up my first indexed bike 18 years ago, Shimano was transitioning from 8 speed to 9. I had to decide which I wanted. A lot of people were saying that 8 speed was easier to adjust, there was more cable pull per shift with 8 than 9, according to this link 8 speed was 2.8mm of cable pull per shift, 9 speed was 2.5mm. Thus, 8 speed stayed in adjustment better than 9 speed. (That table has not been updated for 12 speed.)
Science Behind the Magic | Drivetrain Compatibility ? Art's SLO Cyclery

And looking at Sram cassettes, 8 speed and 9 speed shared 7 of the same sprockets, the 8 speed also had a 26T, the 9 speed had 24T and 28T sprockets. I concluded that I would not spend much time on the part of the cassette where the 24 to 28T sprockets were. Plus, the shifters, chains and cassettes were cheaper for 8 speed. So 8 speed sounded like a better deal from a price and adjustment perspective. And that is why I now have four bikes that all share the same 8 speed 11/32 cassettes. I was happy enough with 8 speed, that I saw real advantages to standardizing on that for spares for the bikes that I built up myself. That includes my Lynskey that I built up five years ago.

Not sure what your 105 was, but I am guessing it was one with a lot of cable pull per shift. Plus, downtube shifters only have maybe a foot of outer housing for the rear which reduces opportunity for housing compression, and the cable has minimal friction. I can see how indexed downtube would shift great.

My bar end shifters are not as crisp shifting as they could be, but that is my fault, I run the cables the full length under the handlebar tape, so the cables are longer and there is more outer housing, thus more opportunity for outer housing compression and more friction. Thus, my shifter cable routing is even longer than for brifters. But I am willing to give up slightly worse shifting for cable runs that I think have better routing for a touring bike.

staehpj1

Yeah, 7 speed and less than 12" of housing certainly contributes to crisp shifting.

FWIW, I always really hated bar end shifters. I tried them way back in the day. I had some dura ace ones that I just hated. I tried to like them. I think the long cable runs were part of it, but mostly I didn't like the location. Convenience is what folks cite as a plus, but I didn't find the location convenient for me. On my bikes, the height was exactly the same as down tube shifters so for me the reaching down thing wasn't a factor. Bumping them out of gear was an issue for me, both with a knee and when parked. Also I always just never found it all that comfortable to use them. At that time I actually had some stem shifters that I much preferred over bar ends both for location and for crispness of shifting. With both the stem or downtube shifters I could shift both shifters with one hand if desired. Basically barends were/are probably my least favorite choice.

I have not used any of these shifters (down tube, bar end, or stem) on more modern bikes since I was a brifter convert early on. At the time I went to 9 speed I also went to brifters. These days if I bought a new bike it would have mechanical brifters or just maybe electronic shifting.

The 7 speed thumb shifters on my old mountain bike were also pretty flawless (indexing front and back). That bike still sees some use, but currently has drop bars installed and some early 7 speed brifters that work okay.

Tourist in MSN

If I have both hands on the hoods, reaching to a bar end shifter is maybe 3 more inches lower.

But look at my bike with the downtube shifter, that shifter is a LOT lower than the ends of my handlebars. This bike has a brifter for the rear, no bar end shifters. It is so low that it is difficult to keep pedaling when I reach down to it.

This photo is when I first built it up, could not wait for the snow to melt, had to take it outside to take some photos.

staehpj1

Yeah, that is likely true for many here.

My bars are lower and I ride with a smallish frame for my height. Since the bars are 3-4" below the saddle, the tops of the bars are parallel to the ground and have fairly deep drops and with the smallish frame the dt shifters are not very low.

The distance is automatically more with larger frames. Then if you use a tall stem or a stack of spacers it is even more so.

So yeah, different deal for me and many folks here.

phughes

Why? I have a LHT and use friction. I liked it so much I swapped the original shifters for friction only shifters from Rivendell. Your opinion on shifters doesn't really answer the OP's question.

The front shifter on the LHT is friction anyway.

djb

guilty as charged. I'll make my way to the penalty box ref.

but don't fret, I too love front friction shifting. Works great and has a very nice tactile, physical enjoyment doing it, which adds to the pleasure of cycling.

phughes

Tourist in MSN

My drop bar bikes, the tops of the bars are about the same height as top of saddle, or maybe up to a half inch lower than the saddle. Not several inches lower like you have.

I think almost all people set up their touring bike drop bars about the same as I have.

My road bike came from the factory with the bars at about the same height you have for touring, I bought a 35 degree stem to fix that.

staehpj1

I'd say that yes the same height as the saddle or just a bit lower is way more typical than what I run. That said I don't think I have seen all that many bikes "in the wild" on tour that have such huge stacks of spacers like I see here on the forums.

I don't doubt you if you say your bars and saddle are at about the same height, but looking at the picture of the big stack of spacers I'd have never guessed it. I have always thought form should follow function so I should not be bothered by the look of it, but I just hate the look of a big stack of spacers. I don't care that others do it, but I'd seek out a tall stem to at least minimze the stack myself. I might even resort to having a custom one welded up if need be.

FWIW, my rationale for the low bars is that my road bike is exceedingly comfortable and when on tour I spend long hours on the bike for consecutive over a long period, so I am about as acclimated to the postion as I will be at any other time. FWIW my MTB is not much higher if at all.

Tourist in MSN

Now days the normal bike has a sloping top tube instead of the historic norms of horizontal tubes. So a horizontal top tube like mine on the bike in the photo is quite rare. That in part is why so many more spacers. If you are curious, more photos of that bike at this link:
https://www.bikeforums.net/electroni...b-charger.html

I do not like to cut steerer tubes shorter, some day someone else will likely own that bike and might want it higher than I would have cut it. That said, I cut it on my S&S coupled bike, there I had a reason to cut it, to make it fit better in the S&S case. I used a3 35 degree stem on that bike too, thus cut off quite a bit of steerer tube.

Photo of the stem on my road bike might look better to you, it had only 25mm of spacers before I removed them and added a way to mount my handlebar bag lower. This bike has a slight slope to the top tube. The stock stem from the manufacturer put the bars down about where you likely would have liked them. But this stem got the bars up to where I wanted them. I bought this bike as a complete bike, not as a frame and fork, thus the manufacturer likely cut the steerer to what they assumed the owner would want.
https://www.bikeforums.net/22462319-post68.html

reroll

I am a commuter/tourist rider who occasionally rides on smooth gravel roads. The OP mentioned the friction shifters on his LHT and I too use what are now known as friction shifters, once known simply as shifters, on all of my bikes including my own LHT.

I like friction shifters for a few reasons. Downtube shifters are what I got started on five and a half decades ago. Most of my bikes now have 3x6,7,8-speed gear trains of frankenbike configurations I developed, which with modern 700c wheels produce ~19 gear inch low gear and either ~90 or ~105 gear inch high gear. Friction shifters can accurately place a chain just where it needs to be including any needed placement trimming and are not too fussy about cable tension. And downtube shifters are so sensitive that a rider could feel as though they were placing a chain with their fingertips.

Like so many other riders, I found myself doing most of my riding on the tops of drop bars and not dropped down on them because as a sit and spin rider a semi-upright position provides nearly all of the power I need and is more comfortable for hours of long distance riding. Yet I wanted a bit more width than the tops of drop bars have but found most flat bars are a bit wider than I want and then I discover 48cm VO Porteur handlebars with a 80-90mm stem is the right setup for me.

Shifters mounted on the upright part of a stem do work but they are not for me and neither are bar-mounted thumb shifters. Bar end shifters are enjoyable but they require gripping the bar with one hand while shifting with the other and there are situations where they can get accidentally shifted by knees. Dia-Compe of Taiwan makes an interesting, bar-mounted, friction ENE Wing Shifter which I would like to try but getting not all but some D-C components imported into the USA can be complicated and that includes trying to import them from Europe too. Yet at the end of the day I am unreservedly glad to have downtube shifters, anyway.

However, and this would not be news to many of you, a few years ago Shimano started putting the brakes on triple crankset gear trains, notice the Surly LHT is no longer with us, and then earlier last year (2021) Shimano actually discontinued producing a whole lot of its better/best-grade triple gear train components including high chain capacity 8- and 9- speed rear derailleurs and with the exception of its Sora line is now leaving only Tourney triple components*. Sugino of Japan triple cranksets (and more) are still available in the USA and can also be ordered directly from Japan, but, most unfortunately, without those Shimano triple components/derailleurs the future of triple gear trains looks very dim, not good at all. And so to all of you triple fans here, a word to the wise being sufficient, get what you need now while still available. You already know about Amazon and eBay and let me suggest Northwest Bicycle as a dealer I have done good business with and who carries a broad range of bicycle components and more.

* Edit: Yes, Shimano still offers high-grade triple components BUT they do not have the various capacities and abilities of the now-discontinued components. I mentioned Sora because that is the only remaining Shimano triple front derailleur having a 22T capacity and a 12T step between the outer and middle chainrings, yet it has only a 45mm chainline for road wheels.

Tourist in MSN

Yup, have two spare triple cranks on the shelf, also have the bottom brackets for them.

Stronglight triple cranks are still pretty easy to find if you are willing to buy from Europe or the UK. (Sometimes you have to look for chainsets, not cranksets.)

I do not know if Spa in the UK will ship to USA or not. I bought something from them quite a few years ago for shipping to USA, went through some extra hoops and hurdles for that. They have some triples under their own name. But, they might not ship here at this time, that I do not know.
https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m8b0s109...rain/Chainsets

Shimano blocks their dealers from shipping to USA from other countries, so don't bother looking for Shimano stuff from Europe.