Jno

I am getting ready for my first tour but one thing I’ve not yet sorted via trial and error is my forward/back weight distribution. Up until now, I’ve been testing variations based on utility and left/right balance but I just noticed an REI recommendation of 60 front/40 back, which I’ve not been using (not even close).

Do people have a sense whether their loaded bikes perform better with front panniers loaded more heavily than their smaller size might seem to suggest? Are there “best practice” (approximate) front/back ratios like REI suggests?

Thanks

staehpj1

More weight up front is better IMO, but not required.

I actually have gone with front panniers only and just a little on the rear rack and liked it pretty well. Not sure what that distribution was, but I'd guess close to 90/10. Also I have never been a fanatic about balancing side to side. I keep it somewhat even, but don't take much care in worrying about exactly how close it is. None of this stuff is all that critical.

Jno

When imbalanced side to side, my bike wobbled (like a speed wobble, but at low speed and probably nothing to do with frequency). Is wobble just a fact of touring life that doesn’t trouble you, or do you not get it even when you have load imbalances?

djb

Jno, pretty simple answer here--go with what feels ok for you.
it's pretty easy to do some trial rides with different weight distribution, and in two minutes riding you'll find what you are more comfortable with.
Just be aware that different bikes with different racks and panniers will have a different feel, not to mention what different riders prefer.
One of my bikes handles quite well with a rear only load, quite a stiff frame and chainstays that help.

Re side to side, I've generally preferred to have equalish balance, and heavier items in front is good too (but for years had much lighter front panniers and or only rear panniers, and within reason it was fine)

I sometimes ride locally with one front pannier, and it feels weird at first but I get used to it.

One important factor re weight distribution is that for potential high speeds and going around corners fast, equal side to side and equalish front\rear makes for a safer, better handling bike--but again, specific bike etc and rider is a big factor here.
I personally love cornering fast and taking advantage of whatever top speed I can safely get to on downhills, so I have a bias here for how my bikes handling feels.

Tourist in MSN

Your question was fore and aft weight distribution, but sounds like a second question about wobble or shimmy issues.

Fore and aft weight distribution, different bikes are designed differently, the fork trail is part of that. I have no expertise on this, but it is my understanding that high trail bikes are better with more weight on back, where low trail bikes are good with more weight up front. Generally bikes built up to be touring bikes have high trail, thus theoretically should favor more weight on back. The reason for that is high trail is associated with holding a straight line better, not too responsive for handling. Touring when you have had a long day, you want the bike to naturally hold a straight line without too much thinking about it. Ask whomever it was that built up your bike if that is considered a low or high trail bike.

I really do not know if two of my bikes are considered high or low trail, but my bikes do not have much of a shimmy issue. My Nomad Mk II is my heaviest bike, I found when heavily loaded a very slight mild resonance at about 23 km/hr, it was reduced when I weakened my grip on the handlebars. Yup, that is what I said, tighter grip on the bars made it worse. But I only noticed it on my first tour, have not noticed it since. My Sherpa, that is my medium touring bike, it always is great, no shimmy. My Lynskey with a Surly fork should be a long trail geometry, have had a minor shimmy a few times but so minor that I did not worry about it much.

I had a Surly LHT (first year of production, mine was one of the first) that had bottom bracket shell problems, Surly refused to warranty it. I took it on two tours, it had a very bad shimmy that I could never get sorted out. I put the frame in the recycle bin, that was the only way to end the shimmy. Later I met a frame builder at a campground on a bike tour, I described the frame problems to her, she explained in great detail how the welder had gotten their heat settings all wrong when they welded the frame, the bottom bracket shell area was like a wet noodle.

Steel frames are more flexible than aluminum frames, if I recall correctly you got a Trek 520 with steel frame?

If I recall it sounded like you anticipated carrying a lot of weight? How heavy is each pannier on your bike? Do you have a handlebar bag, how heavy is that? And rack top bag in back? I am not being judgmental here, I usually carry a lot of weight too.

If I recall your trip starts next month, I was wondering how things are going, and it sounds like it is not going well.

Jno

Djb: I have worked on any number of variables but since I’ve not toured yet, some things crop up for which I’ve not been battle-tested. Eg. I’m riding at a cottage now, where 12% hills are frequent - my previously satisfactory rig now wants to pop wheelies so begun to move weight forward. How much, and with what results still to be determined.

(P.s. I owe you a debt of gratitude because I followed your recommendation to get 22 tooth front ring. Outstanding!)

djb

very good point T---ie how heavy is your load Jno?
give us an idea of what ballpark figure it is, and the details like do you have a handlebar bag that weighs a ton.

also, I've noticed a real difference in putting heavier items lower down in my panniers

despite all the variables involved here, the general rule of putting more weight in front to counter our bodies weight more on rear wheel, plus heavier stuff lower down in panniers, should help improve things.

and throughout all of this, the bike could be fine and you just havent gotten used to a fully loaded bike--not a criticism, this is normal---just impossible for us internet forum folks to give you an answer other than some tried and trued recommendations.

djb

no problem.
hadnt seen this response when I wrote the last stuff.
12% thats steep enough, although when loaded Ive never had the wheelie thing going on because front panniers stop that. Ive only had it rear panniers only or one pannier and stupidly steep stuff, 20% range.

riding loaded on dirt is always going to be trickier handling wise too.

Jno

Tourist in MSN: Your recall is correct (Trek 520, leaving Mid-May).

Things are going as expected (not “well” or “unwell” because we’re still experimenting). Weights (including bags themselves): handlebar bag=3.5 lbs; fronts each 7.5, rears 10 & 11 plus a duffle 6. It doesn’t feel ridiculous but nor does it exhibit confidence-inspiring cornering properties such as djb references in his post

djb

heck, thats only a total of around 40lbs, so not anything out of the ordinary.
Put heavier stuff down low, try more weight in front maybe, but really your setup is what all of us have ridden on for decades, so I dont see any reason why things should be concerning.
re side to side, I dont go nuts balancing things, but kinda just hand hold it to judge (ish)

of course, without riding your bike, we cant really know how it is, but I suspect that unless something is weirdly amiss, its ok and you'll get used to it the more you ride. In the meantime, have fun doing experiments.

cant recall if Ive written this before, but do check your rack bolt tightness regularly, its easy and fast to do. Pretty common for them to loosen when you start riding loaded. Put some loctite on them to be a big help. totally worth doing.

Tourist in MSN

Those weights sound about right, I thought you were going to carry more than that, this sounds pretty good for a Pacific to Newfoundland trip.

What are your racks and what tire size do you have?

First thing, I would try moving front panniers further to the rear or further forward to see if that changes anything.

I doubt if this would impact shimmy but as DJB noted, lower center of gravity. I always put my tools, spare tire, other dense stuff in the bottom, light density stuff like sleeping bag on top.

Rear panniers, you want them as far foreword as you can get them without heel strike. Maybe an extra inch of space for those times you pack a pointy object in the front of a pannier that sticks out.

Being an old time roadie, I assume you know the theory of pressing a knee against a top tube if you suddenly get a shimmy at speed. Practice a few times so your brain understands what it is supposed to do if you suddenly need it.

I do not recall, what panniers did you pick?

staehpj1

I have not had problems with wobbles due to umbalanced loads or speed wobbles either for that matter. I have ridden a huge amount of miles in my 71 years on the planet.. I rode all kinds of bikes and raced on and off road as well as toured fairly extensively. I always figured that there was a rider contributed component to the wobbles. A pilot friend referred to the phenominom as PIOs or pilot induced oscillations. His observation was that some riders were very prone to them, some less so, and some practically immune. Also it may be something that you can train yourself to avoid, but not everyone will be successful at that. I figure it is a little like toe overlap in the sense that the potential may be there on a given bike but some riders may never even notice just automatically avoiding the overlap, some may notice once adjust to it and never have a problem again automatically avoiding the overlap from then on, and others may find it problematic forever unless thay switch to a different bike or change the setup somehow.

Some stuff on PIOs at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot-induced_oscillation

djb

ya, front panniers so over the axle, ie not too forward of axle
as T mentioned, rear panniers forward as much as possible can really make a diff too

Jno

I forget the racks but “expedition-rated”, not lightweight/ recreational. Schwalbe Marathon Plus 38c

I do

Arkel 45 in rear; Ortlieb 25 (sport rollers) in front

Tourist in MSN

I keep forgetting that Arkel makes waterproof panniers. The only person I have toured with has the ones with a lot of zippered pockets.

I will wait to hear how moving front panniers back and forth works.

I am surprised a roadie picked Marathon Plus, they have a reputation for being like a boat anchor. I see nothing on tire size or type to cause any wobble. When I had a bad shimmy, it was only on pavement, not on gravel. That was why I asked about tires, as the only thing I could think of was tire grip on gravel is not as good as pavement.

Jno

The wobble isn’t a game-changer- more of an unexpected symptom of something that may be chalked up to typical ride characteristics. None the less, I’m hopeful increased tire pressure is helpful (I’d chosen the low middle of the tire’s recommended psi range but have since gone to high middle- trying 75 today)

As you can tell by the frequency of my appeals to the forum, I tend to follow research and advice (until I have validated my own ideas, at which point, all bets are off)

saddlesores

you shouldn't be getting a wobble from a single saddlebag, or one side weighted heavier.
plenty of commuters ride with only one bag full of canned goods.
more likely the load isn't secure inside the pack and is flopping around.
mebbe try a strap to secure the pannier against the rack and see if that makes a difference.

headwind15

I strongly believe in putting the camping gear (weight does not vary) in the front and having the weight evenly distributed to have consistent/ good steering. I avoid putting food and clothing in the front as the weight will vary/ possibly creating steering issues. I've never tried to have any sort of front/ back pannier weight ratio./ wouldn't consider it.

Jno

Although my experiments are with bike fully loaded, I admit even a little wobble has me on high-alert. The forum seems to suggest that small weight discrepancies aren’t the issue, and I believe my loads are stable and panniers optimally positioned on their various racks. Next test is tire pressure but I certainly appreciate any and all advice.

79pmooney

Huge fan of LowRider racks and weight low in them vs anywhere in back. As long as I haven't overloaded the front wheel and tire. (Usually the next size up tire solves that issue.) I like to climb out of the saddle or at least have that as a real option. Weight in back leveraging the bike against my hands sucks. Having to keep the bike vertical to minimize that means not having the wonderful leverage of throwing the bike side-to-side. Weight in LowRider panniers affects riding out-of-the-saddle almost zero and allows the full throw. I have not toured in years, but I commute, farmers market and sometimes Home Depot by bike. My city fix gear is LowRider only. I've packed 40 pounds into the two small Ortliebs and ridden my regular route home climbing 550 feet. (Yeah, it was a lot of work! but the bike handled almost as usual.)

I have never been a fan of handlebar bags. I hate what they do to steering. Now, perhaps with a very rigid rack, it could be OK but the standard aluminum ones that pass under the stem and over the handlebars don't cut it for me. Now, I do have a bike with speed wobble issues and I bought a HB bag to try to stop that. No rack yet but first (flat so no speed-wobble test) ride made it clear that I have to stop the bouncing if I want to ride no-hands. I'm thinking of designing a wooden rack that would be both stiff and not very springy.

Edit: Side to side weight issues - my experience: In back? Doesn't matter. Not until it is so far off it is hard to hold the bike upright when you are not on it and even then, it's ridable. But in front, imbalance causes a pull to the heavier side. Still ridable but no-hands becomes harder. You have to lean the bike to offset the weight. More imbalance and the bars will pull hard to that side if you lose grip of them. More and two hands are required at all times. This sounds alarming but if you simply plan so you can wriggle your hand down and pull a can or two out and stash them in the other pannier, no big deal. And you will know right away first start that you missed on the packing. Or - use Ortleibs or the like that lift off simply and just pick them up periodically as you pack.

Jno

Thanks, folks, for all of these insightful replies. I appreciate them and will bear them in mind as I try to get tour-ready!

indyfabz

Just in case it has not crossed your mind...Pack what you might need to access while riding (as opposed to while in camp) in the left panniers. For example, all my cooking eating gear is in the right front pannier because I am highly unlikely to need access it while the road. Same for my sleeping bag and off-bike clothes. (Right rear pannier.) Things like my pump and rain gear are in the left bags.

N.B. Reverse in the UK and other countries where you ride on the other side of the road.

str

Low trail fork, front panniers and nothing ""wobbles"" ))

Tourist in MSN

Just to clarify here what you are feeling, what I call a shimmy is a resonance, it feels like a spring is springing back and forth, with a specific frequency. But, a steel frame will flex and maybe you are just feeling the way it does flex. For example, if you have a rear rack with loaded panniers and you try to stand on the pedals to accelerate, you likely will feel a bike that feels like a sack full of animals that want to get out, it just feels loose without a specific frequency.

I mentioned moving rear panniers forward, not sure if you tried that yet but a friend of mine had a shimmy on his bike and that was how he got rid of it or at least made it more manageable.

One last thought, check to make sure your headset bearings are tight. I assume you know how to check the bearings for tightness, so won't elaborate here.

In the future if you have wobbles (or I call it shimmy or resonance), note the speed, I am guessing that the speed will always be the same. If it is at the same speed, part of the bike has a certain vibration frequency that is speed related, in which case changing the load around or shifting positions might find the way to disrupt that.

I would still like to know what racks you have.

Jno

1. It is at slow speed and it is not always. And yes, like a spring or a taut elastic band being tapped, pulling front end left, right, left…(not sure about frequency). It does make steering a bit of an adventure but thigh clamp of top tube stabilizes it.
2. You’ve been so careful and so thorough with your posts that I’m sorry, but I can’t help on racks. My bike was built by shop, much of which was cobbled together with parts available during covid’s worst shortages.