Carbon fiber bike life span
01-07-23, 06:53 PM
#176
pan y agua
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,077
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1341 Post(s)
Liked 506 Times
in
269 Posts
By the way, the Porsche’s of which GM modeled the Corvair off had rear swing axle suspensions. A Porsche 356 Speedster in great condition has a rear swing axle and will set you back a quarter million dollars.
So build a rear engined flat six with a swing axle, it’s a German sports car, where most of the people who buy it know how to drive, and it’s a sought after icon. Have GM build it and give it to people who really do not know how to drive, and it’s “unsafe at any speed”
So build a rear engined flat six with a swing axle, it’s a German sports car, where most of the people who buy it know how to drive, and it’s a sought after icon. Have GM build it and give it to people who really do not know how to drive, and it’s “unsafe at any speed”
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
Likes For merlinextraligh:
01-07-23, 06:56 PM
#177
Sock Puppet
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 1,310
Bikes: 2014 Cannondale Synapse Carbon, 2017 Jamis Renegade Exploit and too many others to mention.
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 788 Post(s)
Liked 694 Times
in
462 Posts
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
https://www.corvair.org/index.php/ho...e-at-any-speed
or people, could learn to drive. Oversteer is a good thing if you know what you’re doing.
”Oversteer” isn’t’t somethng bad, like the car steersmore than you want. If just means at the limit, the rear tends to come out, more than the front, as opposed to under steer, where the front washes out before the rear.
Every car at the limit will either under steer or oversteer. production cars tend to be balanced to under steer because they are easier to control, particularly by drivers with no concept of chassis dynamics.
oversteer is actually a good thing if you know how to use it. The 930 turbo I posted earlier was prone to significant oversteer, Yet it’s an amazing car in the hands of someone who knew how to drive it.
So, yes the Corvair could have been designed to be more idiot proof, but was by no means unsafe in the hands of a competent driver.
or people, could learn to drive. Oversteer is a good thing if you know what you’re doing.
”Oversteer” isn’t’t somethng bad, like the car steersmore than you want. If just means at the limit, the rear tends to come out, more than the front, as opposed to under steer, where the front washes out before the rear.
Every car at the limit will either under steer or oversteer. production cars tend to be balanced to under steer because they are easier to control, particularly by drivers with no concept of chassis dynamics.
oversteer is actually a good thing if you know how to use it. The 930 turbo I posted earlier was prone to significant oversteer, Yet it’s an amazing car in the hands of someone who knew how to drive it.
So, yes the Corvair could have been designed to be more idiot proof, but was by no means unsafe in the hands of a competent driver.
Likes For Lombard:
01-07-23, 07:27 PM
#178
pan y agua
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,077
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1341 Post(s)
Liked 506 Times
in
269 Posts
Originally Posted by Lombard
The problem with this is that the Corvair was not marketed as a sports car. So most buyers were used to conventional front engine cars that are more likely to understeer.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
01-07-23, 07:39 PM
#179
Sock Puppet
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 1,310
Bikes: 2014 Cannondale Synapse Carbon, 2017 Jamis Renegade Exploit and too many others to mention.
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 788 Post(s)
Liked 694 Times
in
462 Posts
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
so the car wasn’t unsafe; it was the drivers. And by the way the link I posted shows a review of the data showed it wasn’t unsafe.
Granted that the pre-1968 Volkswagen Beetle and Renault Dauphine has the same swing axle rear suspension.
01-07-23, 07:47 PM
#180
pan y agua
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,077
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1341 Post(s)
Liked 506 Times
in
269 Posts
Originally Posted by Lombard
So do you expect the population as a whole to have the driving skills of Mario Andretti? This is a weak argument. When you intruduce something new to the public, you can't expect the masses to underatand something they haven't seen.
Granted that the pre-1968 Volkswagen Beetle and Renault Dauphine has the same swing axle rear suspension.
Granted that the pre-1968 Volkswagen Beetle and Renault Dauphine has the same swing axle rear suspension.
so millions of Germans and French people can drive such a car, but put it in the hands of Americans and a liability system where no one has to take any responsibility for their own behavior, and it’s always somebody else’s fault and it becomes unsafe?
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
01-07-23, 07:53 PM
#181
Sock Puppet
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 1,310
Bikes: 2014 Cannondale Synapse Carbon, 2017 Jamis Renegade Exploit and too many others to mention.
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 788 Post(s)
Liked 694 Times
in
462 Posts
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
so millions of Germans and French people can drive such a car, but put it in the hands of Americans and a liability system where no one has to take any responsibility for their own behavior, and it’s always somebody else’s fault and it becomes unsafe?
Likes For Lombard:
01-07-23, 07:57 PM
#182
pan y agua
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,077
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1341 Post(s)
Liked 506 Times
in
269 Posts
Originally Posted by Lombard
Strawman argument noted.
No straw man. It’s dead on point. Your prior post was that while it might be safe to market as a Porsche sports car, it wasn’t safe for the masses. Yet millions of French and Germans driving similar economy cars would show it could be safely driven, even by non sports car drivers.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
01-07-23, 08:11 PM
#183
Sock Puppet
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 1,310
Bikes: 2014 Cannondale Synapse Carbon, 2017 Jamis Renegade Exploit and too many others to mention.
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 788 Post(s)
Liked 694 Times
in
462 Posts
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
No straw man. It’s dead on point. Your prior post was that while it might be safe to market as a Porsche sports car, it wasn’t safe for the masses. Yet millions of French and Germans driving similar economy cars would show it could be safely driven, even by non sports car drivers.
01-07-23, 08:15 PM
#184
pan y agua
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,077
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1341 Post(s)
Liked 506 Times
in
269 Posts
Originally Posted by Lombard
it's telling that the GM engineers recommended a front stabilizer bar for the Corvair only to have management nix the idea, then add it on in subsequent model years after accidents and deaths due to oversteer.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
01-07-23, 08:24 PM
#185
Sock Puppet
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 1,310
Bikes: 2014 Cannondale Synapse Carbon, 2017 Jamis Renegade Exploit and too many others to mention.
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 788 Post(s)
Liked 694 Times
in
462 Posts
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
shifting your argument. Lose the point you’re trying to make; try another.
01-07-23, 08:27 PM
#186
pan y agua
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,077
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1341 Post(s)
Liked 506 Times
in
269 Posts
Originally Posted by Lombard
Wrong. I mentioned that before. Try again.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
01-07-23, 09:25 PM
#187
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,595
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2998 Post(s)
Liked 5,207 Times
in
2,115 Posts
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
So, yes the Corvair could have been designed to be more idiot proof, but was by no means unsafe in the hands of a competent driver.
01-07-23, 09:43 PM
#188
pan y agua
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,077
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1341 Post(s)
Liked 506 Times
in
269 Posts
Originally Posted by tomato coupe
GM attorneys would have had a heart attack if an executive had made a statement like that about a car marketed to the masses.
you couldn’t sell a Porsche 930 turbo in the US today because it had a nasty habit of killing poor drivers. Yet, if you know what you’re doing it was an amazing car for the day.
We lose something if everything has to be designed to the lowest common denominator.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
Likes For thin_concrete:
01-07-23, 09:53 PM
#190
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,595
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2998 Post(s)
Liked 5,207 Times
in
2,115 Posts
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
hence one of the problems with this country. Applying that logic, no one is responsible for their own behavior, or learning to actually operate the machinery they use.
you couldn’t sell a Porsche 930 turbo in the US today because it had a nasty habit of killing poor drivers. Yet, if you know what you’re doing it was an amazing car for the day.
We lose something if everything has to be designed to the lowest common denominator.
you couldn’t sell a Porsche 930 turbo in the US today because it had a nasty habit of killing poor drivers. Yet, if you know what you’re doing it was an amazing car for the day.
We lose something if everything has to be designed to the lowest common denominator.
01-16-23, 08:26 AM
#191
Extra Medium Member
Came in to read about bikes.... but I guess I didn't know what I was thinking.
__________________
Droping the hamer since '86
Droping the hamer since '86
01-16-23, 11:43 AM
#192
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 13,793
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7803 Post(s)
Liked 8,457 Times
in
4,314 Posts
I found some videos of road tests from the 1960s and early 70s. They're hilarious, because what they're calling "good handling" is cars leaned WAY over, plowing through corners with squealing bias ply tires, losing so much rubber you can see it falling on the track, or sliding sideways through the frame during a "Panic Stop".
It's interesting that we've all internalized the idea that the Corvair was an awful, unstable car prone to suddenly flying off the road bass-ackwards into the weeds on corners, but I wonder how many actually did? And of course in 1965 Chevy gave them full IRS anyway, as well as some of the best looks of any car of that era.
It's interesting that we've all internalized the idea that the Corvair was an awful, unstable car prone to suddenly flying off the road bass-ackwards into the weeds on corners, but I wonder how many actually did? And of course in 1965 Chevy gave them full IRS anyway, as well as some of the best looks of any car of that era.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
Last edited by genejockey; 01-16-23 at 04:50 PM.
Likes For genejockey:
01-16-23, 11:45 AM
#193
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 13,793
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7803 Post(s)
Liked 8,457 Times
in
4,314 Posts
Originally Posted by thin_concrete
I can’t believe we’re comparing 930 Turbos and Corvairs, but it is BF…
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
Likes For genejockey:
01-16-23, 06:08 PM
#194
Sock Puppet
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 1,310
Bikes: 2014 Cannondale Synapse Carbon, 2017 Jamis Renegade Exploit and too many others to mention.
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 788 Post(s)
Liked 694 Times
in
462 Posts
Originally Posted by redtires
Came in to read about bikes.... but I guess I didn't know what I was thinking.
01-16-23, 06:13 PM
#195
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 22,023
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6185 Post(s)
Liked 6,177 Times
in
3,115 Posts
Originally Posted by genejockey
I found some videos of road tests from the 1960s and early 70s. They're hilarious, because what they're calling "good handling" is cars leaned WAY over, plowing through corners with squealing bias ply tires, losing so much rubber you can see it falling on the track, or sliding sideways through the frame during a "Panic Stop".
It's interesting that we've all internalized the idea that the Corvair was an awful, unstable car prone to suddenly flying off the road bass-ackwards into the weeds on corners, but I wonder how many actually did? And of course in 1965 Chevy gave them full IRS anyway, as well as some of the best looks of any car of that era.
It's interesting that we've all internalized the idea that the Corvair was an awful, unstable car prone to suddenly flying off the road bass-ackwards into the weeds on corners, but I wonder how many actually did? And of course in 1965 Chevy gave them full IRS anyway, as well as some of the best looks of any car of that era.
Likes For big john:
01-16-23, 06:30 PM
#196
Sock Puppet
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 1,310
Bikes: 2014 Cannondale Synapse Carbon, 2017 Jamis Renegade Exploit and too many others to mention.
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 788 Post(s)
Liked 694 Times
in
462 Posts
Originally Posted by big john
Sometimes I wish I still had my 66. Looked like this.
01-16-23, 06:44 PM
#197
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 22,023
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6185 Post(s)
Liked 6,177 Times
in
3,115 Posts
Originally Posted by Lombard
Ahhh, the 2nd gen Corvair. This one had a fully independent rear suspension rather than the controversial swing-axle suspension. This one also looked nicer than the 1st gen Corvair.
01-16-23, 06:46 PM
#198
Habitual User
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Altadena, CA
Posts: 4,700
Bikes: 2019 Trek Procliber 9.9 SL, 2018 Storck Fascenario.3 Platinum, 2017 Bear Big Rock 1, 2003 Time VX Special Pro, 2001 Colnago VIP, 1999 Trek 9900 singlespeed, 1977 Nishiki ONP
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2876 Post(s)
Liked 4,468 Times
in
2,134 Posts
Originally Posted by big john
Sometimes I wish I still had my 66. Looked like this.
Ours was brown, and never ran during the time it was parked in our backyard. My dad had dreams of putting a V8 in it, but it was never more than dreams. The last I saw of it was being towed out of our driveway by whomever my dad managed to sell it to.
Likes For Eric F:
01-16-23, 06:58 PM
#199
Sock Puppet
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 1,310
Bikes: 2014 Cannondale Synapse Carbon, 2017 Jamis Renegade Exploit and too many others to mention.
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 788 Post(s)
Liked 694 Times
in
462 Posts
Originally Posted by Eric F
When I was young, we had a Corvair van...
Ours was brown, and never ran during the time it was parked in our backyard. My dad had dreams of putting a V8 in it, but it was never more than dreams. The last I saw of it was being towed out of our driveway by whomever my dad managed to sell it to.
Ours was brown, and never ran during the time it was parked in our backyard. My dad had dreams of putting a V8 in it, but it was never more than dreams. The last I saw of it was being towed out of our driveway by whomever my dad managed to sell it to.
Likes For Lombard:
01-16-23, 09:49 PM
#200
Extra Medium Member
Originally Posted by Lombard
You must be new.
Cautiously optimistic.
__________________
Droping the hamer since '86
Droping the hamer since '86
Likes For redtires:
