GhostRider62

Someone mentioned motor vehicle traffic as an issue. Really? Cars are few and far between from Loudeac to Brest in my experience. I did the round trip Monday in 2015 and then in 2019, I went to Brest during the day and slept the night there returning in daylight on Tuesday. My only niggle were some of the little paths they throw us on and oncoming headlights either due to misadjustment or poor design. It was brutal to the eyes in 2015 all the way to Tinteniac. But cars? Not really. I had a slight tailwind briefly on some of the descents, I'd pass a velomobile on the climbs and he would roar past me at 70+ mph, rinse and repeat for an hour. That was fun. No cars. Anyway, a good change except the section from Brest back to Carhaix is very hilly. Into Brest, the route comes down the Roc and then goes right over to Landerau into Brest, which is essentially the return route of of Brest in 2019. You return over the famous photo bridge and then take a more southern route back up to Carhaix (not back up the Roc).

I registered in Wave B. Hope not to regret it.

unterhausen

It looks like your complaint about lights isn't going to be the case so much with the new course, large stretches of it have separate routes for outbound and inbound. Particularly the western parts where there is a lot of overlap between the two.

You usually ride in areas with a lot of traffic, so your reference is off a little. There are roads near me I stay off of if I can that people from further east are really happy with. I can see why they wouldn't use bike paths though, there would be giant pileups of riders. There aren't enough ambulances in France for that, they would have to borrow some.

GhostRider62

I rarely see cars on my routes. Typically one every 15 minutes.

Supposedly the stretch between Tintineac and Fougeres can have traffic but I have always ridden that at night or just at sunrise, so, I have no idea. Loudeac to/from Brest have never been an issue with cars for me aside of course in downtown Brest getting to the school.

In 2019 on a recumbent, I caught many 80H packs and they were gutter to gutter due to the strong crosswind off the right shoulder. I do not remember a single instance of a car from the rear and only a couple from ahead. The oncoming cars pulled off the road. So, it is quite possible the PBP officials got complaints about this sort of egregious practice. I have to admit I did like seeing the returning riders as I scraped my way to Brest in 2019 but at night, those poor chaps would have had their eyes filled.

I did see some pileups on the path in 2015 as I was returning and it was VERY dangerous because the outbound riders were taking the whole road at high speed as I was climbing and on more than one occasion, I had to go off the road. I saw the fellow who died on that stretch and I had thought it was a crash but apparently he had an MI. That was very upsetting to see. So, I am not fond of little paths with rocks and branches that are becoming popular on brevets these days.

unterhausen

Yes, Loudeac to Brest is pretty nice. In 2011 on the way out, I got to the national road that goes over Roc'h just at morning rush hour and it was foggy, so there was more traffic than I wanted under those conditions. Leaving controls can be bad. After leaving Tintineac wasn't great either way for about 10 miles. I wondered what the traffic was like going to St Nick during the day, but since I was there in the middle of the night there was none. Beautiful pavement too. What makes riding in France better than the U.S. is that generally people are no more reckless and somewhat more patient.

I finally thought to look up roc'h on forvo https://forvo.com/word/roc%27h/#br
I think this might be a French speaker though.
Here is another one https://forvo.com/word/peurid-ar-roc%27h/#br

GhostRider62

I could imagine road sinto and out of Tintineac could be heavily travelled. My experience is probably not normal. 1995 in 84H group was well before rush hour, 2015 middle of the night, and in 2019 midday (I slept in Fougeres on the way out) and then I arrived about 7:30 pm on the return and left about 3:30 am. So, the roads were pretty tame or even empty with traffic.

Imagine back in the day taking the N12 the whole way?

Changing the route to have less overlap in the return was 100% good decision in my opinion. I just wish there were more hotels in Rambouillet as there were near the velodrome. That is the reason the 84H groups are last to fill up, I think.

GhostRider62

Over 42,000 feet of climbing this time. I was right the return from Brest to Loudeac is going to be hard(er).


https://www.paris-brest-paris.org/wp...e_PBP_2023.pdf

I am 30 pounds heavier but on the plus side, I am 30 watts lighter.

Claude.fr

12 years is a long time, no way it can be old age taking its toll, things change fast.
If unconvinced, think of US society,12 years ago, compared with today.

France and french society is no different, exposed to, I can’t explain it otherwise, to engineered (not by French themselves willingly) divisions with individual citizens increasingly adopting entrenched positions.
Reads familiar ?
End of thread drift/
As far as attitudes towards cyclists are concerned, good people in their cars who always were careful with riders are more careful, respectful and even friendly and there could be more and more of them.
the Not-so-good are becoming increasingly aggressive, not passively but deliberately.
People who are permanently angry not necessarily behind a steering wheel.

Claude.fr

That’s definitely not pronounced like Rock, this, I knew, we are making progress.
My hears aren’t trained enough to spot a difference of pronunciation, perhaps you can ?

If you can, you could have a great time teaching the locals, that is 99% of them, how c’h is pronounced properly

Claude.fr

Where is that ?
To each is own, that would be my kind of brevet.
For the record, Roman “civil engineers” knew a thing or two about road building 2000 years ago.
Climbing steep grade alternating with semi-flat, then steep again, then flat sections, where just like the Romans horses, I can catch my breath and de-bunk, suits me fine.
The modernized Routes Nationales, designed for 18 wheelers and their boring regular grade climbs, no shoulder, can’t get out of the saddle, condemned to grind your way up, brushed by 50t of steel on wheels, No thanks.
Small distances Brevets are a no brainer, 600km on Routes Nationales is out of question.

Maybe, I should have been more clear, I can understand that bicycle **lanes** in urbanized areas can be problematic, bicycle paths, EuroVelo style, are a totally different animal.

At some point, the French Federation needs to get their facts right, they cannot lobby for the, very welcome, construction of cycling paths without incentivizing cyclists to use them.... and that includes would-be-pro-racers.

As it happens other road users are also taxpayers who have ground to wonder what’s the point of cycling paths if cyclists don’t use them ?

GhostRider62

Every path on every brevet and mostly every MUP in the USA. Gravel, rocks, branches on the ground and in the air awaiting you, especially in the dark.

Cycling paths in Holland or Germany are different beasts, they are designed to take bicyclists from point A to point B whereas in the states, paths tend to be old rail lines, tow paths, or specially built multiple use paths (MUPS). MUPs have people walking, jogging, walking the dog, roller bladers, etc. and I have found them much more risky in many cases than just riding the road. Plus, the speed limit on them is very low. Your experience is different because your paths are different and your expectation is more like a cycling tourist.

GhostRider62

I agree. France has changed a lot in the 40+ years that I have been visiting but I have had no seriously bad encounters with motorist there unlike in the USA. There is no comparison in my experience but maybe France will eventually catch up with the anger on our roads in some states. The difference is not merely culture, the laws here usually offer little protection to the wronged cyclist.

unterhausen

I have some gravel road brevets in Central Pennsylvania. I have to get them approved again. They are awesome unless it's hunting season.

Well, I was there in 2019 too. There was a big difference in 8 years. Both in 2011 and 2019, the drivers that caused me the most concern were driving trucks. One of them in 2011 was a manure truck driver, which made me wonder about the rider that died that year. OTOH, there was a truck driver that took heroic measures to not hit me when I was entering a roundabout. I think I assumed he was going straight, but he was going 3/4 of the way around the circle. And it was at the bottom of a hill, so I had a little too much speed to slow down for him.

Claude.fr

I beg to differ about NL.
Proof with a video, it is perfectly possible to a do 200km brevet on roads where the probability of being knocked off your bike by a 18 wheeler is close to zero ( check road width, not sure trucks can cross each other)

Never paid attention in NL, don’t know if it is the same, but in France, it’s even simpler, there’s a hundreds of thousands of km network of roads with weight limits set at 7.5t down to as little as 3.5t Max, no 18 wheelers allowed.
Simple.

Again, I am sorry to insist but you can’t compare the US and Europe, where cyclists spoilt for choice, thanks to Roman and medieval “civil engineers”, have at their disposal a 2000 years old network of small, narrow, scenic, paved roads with very little traffic.

WhyTF, French Audax can’t use that network ?
Too complicated, too many changes of direction, too much work to prepare the route ?

Claude.fr

In my books Paris Brest Paris **Randonneur** isn’t Liège-Bastogne-Liège, which is a Pro race.
PBP race ended in 1951.
Check notes...
PBP is organized under the Federation Francaise de Cyclo Tourisme umbrella by Audax Club Parisien (ACP) un club cyclotouriste fondé en 1904.

Totally agree, we are talking cycling tourism or cyclotourisme, in French.
Nothing unreasonable in my expectations, Right ?

For comparison, Check RATN, which unlike the amicable PBP randonnée is a race, the clue is in the name.

RATN, @1957km is considerably longer than PBP, cursory look at a map tells me that it’s ridden principally on dedicated cycling lanes+ some inevitable MUPs in a country which population density is nowhere near to compare with empty central Brittany.

Young Sherry, 1st female, rode 1957km in 5 days, 13hrs, 50min abiding by driving code and even respecting traffic lights. Go figure.

Spot the difference with French laggards i.e. infrastructure for cyclists ?

You Tube

GhostRider62

Look, I don't like this discussion, MUPs have a speed limit of 10 or 15 mph. My touring speed is higher than that on my upright and much higher on my recumbent. I don't care for paths. Ok? I did not like the little path on PBP where I was constantly forced off the road as mentioned earlier. Your comparison to professional races is stupid.

Claude.fr

Let me correct that for you.

”MY touring speed is higher than that on MY upright and much higher on MYrecumbent. I don't care for paths. Ok?

In true, “ME” fashion because me (and my average speed) is the most important person in the world.

Other road users ?
Paah, the concept of sharing a common space with others is totally alien to you.
Bike paths might be good enough for inferior slow cyclists but certainly not for your superior self.

You don’t like bike paths, you’d better get used to them !

Thanks to volunteers, like myself, investing a lot time, energy and even their own money, in lobbying lawmakers, for better cycling infrastructure, it is only of matter of time before, just like elsewhere, and for everyone peace of mind, including other road users, you are left with no other choice than using bike paths.


The dotted lines, check link, Project, Bike path (Voie Verte) work in progress, are disappearing fast, in Brittany, in particular.
Lol !

Can’t wait for PBP organization to be told by Brittany local authorities,
Look we’ve built at taxpayers expense a beautiful brand new Voie Verte, stage your départs over a longer period of time, you are not allowed to use the road anymore.


FYI, there’s a precedent, after the accidental death of two riders, in 1975, PBP was banned from the RN12.

https://www.af3v.org/les-voies-verte...-voies-vertes/

downtube42

I see the 600k riders' registration stories popping up; quite a few speak of website overload issues. Happy I finished a 1000k and got in already.

Prior three PBPs I started with the recumbent group just ahead of the 90H uprights, 5:30pm IIRC. That put me ahead of the 90 hour bulge; leaving the first few controls I would see lines obviously growing from when I arrived.

Next year I'll be on an upright, 6:30pm start, and probably in the midst of the bulge. Perhaps that's an argument for a fast start, to get some separation from the bulge. That goes against my general strategy of starting calmly so I can finish strong.

clasher

Looks like most folks are choosing 80/90h start times, only looks like less than 200 more registered for the 84h start.

I could have registered now but am going to wait and see how I hold up on a 200 before spending the 50 euro.

ThermionicScott 

I'm curious what ACP would/will do if a group filled up. Just expect people to register for whatever is left?

unterhausen

Yes, groups fill up every time the ride is held. Last time people were registering for the special group because all the 90h groups were full. But then the acp opened up some slots when people didn't complete their registrations.

ThermionicScott 

Interesting! So some regular upright bikes went out in a wave with the special bikes? Or was ACP able to avoid that with the extra slots?

I hadn't considered this possibility, not that I'd probably choose it.

clasher

Waves G to O are all filled now, only waves after 19:45 departure are left for the 90h. 84h has lots of room left, except the 5am wave only has 6 spots left. Waves D & E in the 80h have over 200 spots, but the first wave has -1 spot left.

ThermionicScott 

Hey clasher, where did you find that info?

clasher

It's in the pre-registration form, when selecting start times, the drop-down has remaining spots listed.

ThermionicScott 

Ah, that makes sense! Another few weeks before I can get to that...