Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Indoor & Stationary Cycling Forum
Reload this Page >

The weight cheating on Zwift controversy

Notices
Indoor & Stationary Cycling Forum From spin to Zwift to Peloton, this forum is dedicated to any and all indoor training on stationary bikes

The weight cheating on Zwift controversy

Old 02-24-22, 11:35 AM
  #1  
himespau 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
himespau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 13,551
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4194 Post(s)
Liked 2,911 Times in 1,780 Posts
The weight cheating on Zwift controversy

Anybody hear about the whole weight changing during your race to cheat thing?

Apparently the guy who publicized it (after telling Zwift and getting no response) got banned from Zwift as a result. Yet, I still haven't heard that the guy who blogs about cruising (and posts links to his blog on the Zwift forums) has gotten even a slap on the wrist.

https://web.archive.org/web/20220224...aces-on-zwift/
himespau is offline  
Old 02-24-22, 11:56 AM
  #2  
GhostRider62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2332 Post(s)
Liked 2,094 Times in 1,311 Posts
Height cheating is more effective on zwift.

The problem? The game does not accurately represent cycling in the real world.
GhostRider62 is offline  
Old 02-24-22, 12:27 PM
  #3  
dmanthree
Senior Member
 
dmanthree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Northeastern MA, USA
Posts: 1,678

Bikes: Garmin/Tacx Bike Smart

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 646 Post(s)
Liked 289 Times in 191 Posts
Zwift. Isn't. Real. Cycling.

Yes, I use it and like it, but really, there are multiple ways to cheat the game.
dmanthree is offline  
Old 02-24-22, 12:51 PM
  #4  
CliffordK
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,600
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18319 Post(s)
Liked 4,487 Times in 3,337 Posts
I like the concept. Make yourself lighter for those hill climbs.

If only that would work on my bicycle outdoors.
CliffordK is offline  
Likes For CliffordK:
Old 02-24-22, 01:06 PM
  #5  
himespau 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
himespau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 13,551
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4194 Post(s)
Liked 2,911 Times in 1,780 Posts
What I can't figure out is how, in the heat of a race, people are able to get into their app and type that stuff in and then remember to go back in and fix it right before the finish. I would definitely screw that up. On the other hand, I see people typing messages to each other in the middle of races and I don't have the coordination for that either.
himespau is offline  
Old 02-24-22, 01:51 PM
  #6  
dmanthree
Senior Member
 
dmanthree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Northeastern MA, USA
Posts: 1,678

Bikes: Garmin/Tacx Bike Smart

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 646 Post(s)
Liked 289 Times in 191 Posts
Originally Posted by himespau
What I can't figure out is how, in the heat of a race, people are able to get into their app and type that stuff in and then remember to go back in and fix it right before the finish. I would definitely screw that up. On the other hand, I see people typing messages to each other in the middle of races and I don't have the coordination for that either.
You underestimate their desire to cheat to win. Which is why I will *never* consider any for of "E" racing legit.

OK, I'll admit, I once did something just to prove to someone how easy it was to cheat. I used a speed sensor instead of a power meter, and put two magnets on the sensor wheel. Made it up AdZ in record time.

No, I did not save the ride. Seemed pretty obvious...
dmanthree is offline  
Old 02-24-22, 03:44 PM
  #7  
PeteHski
Senior Member
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,163
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4271 Post(s)
Liked 4,706 Times in 2,906 Posts
I don't care if people cheat on Zwift. They are strangers, so it doesn't matter to me if their stats are real or not. What does it matter if I'm racing a weight cheater or someone genuine with the same apparent W/kg? It would be different if there was money involved, but for me the motivation is just to beat whoever I'm racing against, regardless of whether their performance is real or imaginary. I know my numbers are real, so I'm not deluding myself like cheaters are.
PeteHski is online now  
Old 02-24-22, 05:09 PM
  #8  
tempocyclist
Senior Member
 
tempocyclist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Australia
Posts: 815

Bikes: 2002 Trek 5200 (US POSTAL), 2020 Canyon Aeroad SL

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 309 Post(s)
Liked 664 Times in 324 Posts
Originally Posted by himespau
What I can't figure out is how, in the heat of a race, people are able to get into their app and type that stuff in and then remember to go back in and fix it right before the finish.

Same. It's like the bike change mid-race to be faster on the gravel. Apparently you can do it super quick, but I would 100% mess it up!
tempocyclist is offline  
Old 02-24-22, 06:39 PM
  #9  
himespau 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
himespau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 13,551
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4194 Post(s)
Liked 2,911 Times in 1,780 Posts
Originally Posted by tempocyclist
Same. It's like the bike change mid-race to be faster on the gravel. Apparently you can do it super quick, but I would 100% mess it up!
I've actually managed that in about 13 seconds in a race. Some people have macros that let them do it in like 5.
himespau is offline  
Likes For himespau:
Old 02-24-22, 09:31 PM
  #10  
atwl77
Kamen Rider
 
atwl77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: KL, MY
Posts: 1,071

Bikes: Fuji Transonic Elite, Marechal Soul Ultimate, Dahon Dash Altena

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 351 Post(s)
Liked 277 Times in 164 Posts
Originally Posted by himespau
I've actually managed that in about 13 seconds in a race. Some people have macros that let them do it in like 5.
Macros are the way. So much so that in other kinds of online games (e.g. shooters, mmorpgs, etc) you are very likely to be flagged by the anti-cheat software if you are employing macros extensively.
atwl77 is offline  
Old 02-24-22, 09:41 PM
  #11  
atwl77
Kamen Rider
 
atwl77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: KL, MY
Posts: 1,071

Bikes: Fuji Transonic Elite, Marechal Soul Ultimate, Dahon Dash Altena

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 351 Post(s)
Liked 277 Times in 164 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski
I don't care if people cheat on Zwift. They are strangers, so it doesn't matter to me if their stats are real or not. What does it matter if I'm racing a weight cheater or someone genuine with the same apparent W/kg? It would be different if there was money involved, but for me the motivation is just to beat whoever I'm racing against, regardless of whether their performance is real or imaginary. I know my numbers are real, so I'm not deluding myself like cheaters are.
Good for you to be able to tune the cheaters out like that, but I think that for a lot of other people, it's a pretty normal feeling to have disdain for cheaters - especially if it's them against the cheaters.

I mean, for example, even if we just approached it from a "game" angle... how would you feel about playing Snake & Ladders with someone who occasionally "miscounts" their moves to avoid the snakes or to get a ladder? Or someone who "accidentally" draws extra money from the bank when no one is looking carefully in a game of Monopoly? Or the guy who installs an aimbot to accurately shoot other characters in the head in an online game of Counterstrike/Call of Duty/Fortnite/etc?
atwl77 is offline  
Likes For atwl77:
Old 02-25-22, 07:16 AM
  #12  
Hiro11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,608

Bikes: 2022 Specialized Allez Sprint custom build, 2019 Giant Defy Advanced Pro 0, 2018 Seven Mudhoney Pro custom build, 2017 Raleigh Stuntman, various others

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 782 Post(s)
Liked 475 Times in 238 Posts
I don't understand why people care.
Hiro11 is offline  
Likes For Hiro11:
Old 02-25-22, 07:19 AM
  #13  
GhostRider62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2332 Post(s)
Liked 2,094 Times in 1,311 Posts
Originally Posted by himespau
What I can't figure out is how, in the heat of a race, people are able to get into their app and type that stuff in and then remember to go back in and fix it right before the finish. I would definitely screw that up. On the other hand, I see people typing messages to each other in the middle of races and I don't have the coordination for that either.
You don't have a Domestique at the keyboard?
GhostRider62 is offline  
Likes For GhostRider62:
Old 02-25-22, 07:39 AM
  #14  
himespau 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
himespau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 13,551
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4194 Post(s)
Liked 2,911 Times in 1,780 Posts
Originally Posted by atwl77
Macros are the way. So much so that in other kinds of online games (e.g. shooters, mmorpgs, etc) you are very likely to be flagged by the anti-cheat software if you are employing macros extensively.
Originally Posted by GhostRider62
You don't have a Domestique at the keyboard?
Honestly, I would be surprised if both of those things were not outlawed in the official eRacing rules (not that people follow those for dinky little races).
himespau is offline  
Old 02-25-22, 09:18 AM
  #15  
PeteHski
Senior Member
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,163
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4271 Post(s)
Liked 4,706 Times in 2,906 Posts
Originally Posted by atwl77
Good for you to be able to tune the cheaters out like that, but I think that for a lot of other people, it's a pretty normal feeling to have disdain for cheaters - especially if it's them against the cheaters.

I mean, for example, even if we just approached it from a "game" angle... how would you feel about playing Snake & Ladders with someone who occasionally "miscounts" their moves to avoid the snakes or to get a ladder? Or someone who "accidentally" draws extra money from the bank when no one is looking carefully in a game of Monopoly? Or the guy who installs an aimbot to accurately shoot other characters in the head in an online game of Counterstrike/Call of Duty/Fortnite/etc?
It's different in Zwift though. A cheating rider (lets say someone who has dropped their real weight by 15 kg) and a genuinely faster rider are indistinguishable to me. The fact that they are both strangers makes their "cheating" status irrelevant. Say I'm racing in my own B or C category and there are several D riders who have cheated to produce a respectable B W/kg, then what do I care? It's just more avatars to race against. They might beat me or they might not. Either way I'm none the wiser whether they are genuine riders or fat couch potato wannabes. I'll never know and it doesn't matter. The only time it would matter is if I was a "pro" e-racer and there was money/cycling career at stake.
PeteHski is online now  
Old 02-25-22, 11:06 AM
  #16  
spelger
Senior Member
 
spelger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: reno, nv
Posts: 2,274

Bikes: yes, i have one

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1122 Post(s)
Liked 1,169 Times in 682 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski
It's different in Zwift though. A cheating rider (lets say someone who has dropped their real weight by 15 kg) and a genuinely faster rider are indistinguishable to me. The fact that they are both strangers makes their "cheating" status irrelevant. Say I'm racing in my own B or C category and there are several D riders who have cheated to produce a respectable B W/kg, then what do I care? It's just more avatars to race against. They might beat me or they might not. Either way I'm none the wiser whether they are genuine riders or fat couch potato wannabes. I'll never know and it doesn't matter. The only time it would matter is if I was a "pro" e-racer and there was money/cycling career at stake.
and it also pushes you harder which is kind of sort of the goal anyway.
spelger is offline  
Old 02-25-22, 12:36 PM
  #17  
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,362
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,662 Times in 2,496 Posts
It bothers me a little, but I think it's so endemic that it just makes me want to stay away from races and group rides. When I'm riding on my own, it couldn't matter less to me.

Funny thing was I read this thread and then got an email from zwift about the UCI eracing championships. Cheating is pretty important to some people
unterhausen is offline  
Likes For unterhausen:
Old 02-25-22, 12:48 PM
  #18  
MinnMan
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,733

Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4258 Post(s)
Liked 2,934 Times in 1,809 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski
It's different in Zwift though. A cheating rider (lets say someone who has dropped their real weight by 15 kg) and a genuinely faster rider are indistinguishable to me. The fact that they are both strangers makes their "cheating" status irrelevant. Say I'm racing in my own B or C category and there are several D riders who have cheated to produce a respectable B W/kg, then what do I care? It's just more avatars to race against. They might beat me or they might not. Either way I'm none the wiser whether they are genuine riders or fat couch potato wannabes. I'll never know and it doesn't matter. The only time it would matter is if I was a "pro" e-racer and there was money/cycling career at stake.
I totally get this. I haven't raced on zwift for more than a year - simply because it's not how I'm choosing to use my indoor cycling time these days- but when I did, I poured my heart into it, pushed myself to my limits, and got soundly beaten every time. The first two of those mattered, the third didn't at all. Even had I won, who would have cared?

Last edited by MinnMan; 02-25-22 at 12:57 PM.
MinnMan is offline  
Old 02-25-22, 12:56 PM
  #19  
GhostRider62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2332 Post(s)
Liked 2,094 Times in 1,311 Posts
Originally Posted by himespau
Honestly, I would be surprised if both of those things were not outlawed in the official eRacing rules (not that people follow those for dinky little races).
I was joking.

People take that dinky game too seriously
GhostRider62 is offline  
Old 02-25-22, 12:57 PM
  #20  
himespau 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
himespau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 13,551
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4194 Post(s)
Liked 2,911 Times in 1,780 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski
It's different in Zwift though. A cheating rider (lets say someone who has dropped their real weight by 15 kg) and a genuinely faster rider are indistinguishable to me. The fact that they are both strangers makes their "cheating" status irrelevant. Say I'm racing in my own B or C category and there are several D riders who have cheated to produce a respectable B W/kg, then what do I care? It's just more avatars to race against. They might beat me or they might not. Either way I'm none the wiser whether they are genuine riders or fat couch potato wannabes. I'll never know and it doesn't matter. The only time it would matter is if I was a "pro" e-racer and there was money/cycling career at stake.
On the other hand, folks who blow up races by going out "too hard" because they are capable of putting out more Watts than designated for the category (for whatever reason, cheating or just riding the wrong category), lead to people chasing them beyond their limits, scatter the original pack and make the race less fun for everyone. If they're not doing that and just flat out beating me, I agree it doesn't matter why.
himespau is offline  
Old 02-25-22, 01:06 PM
  #21  
caloso
Senior Member
 
caloso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2952 Post(s)
Liked 3,106 Times in 1,417 Posts
caloso is offline  
Old 02-25-22, 02:14 PM
  #22  
genejockey 
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 17,649

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10242 Post(s)
Liked 11,594 Times in 5,942 Posts
Originally Posted by GhostRider62
Height cheating is more effective on zwift.

The problem? The game does not accurately represent cycling in the real world.
Boy, howdy, is that the truth!

I set my Zwift numbers accurately - 6', 91 kg - but one time I accidentally reset my height to 3 feet without realizing it (rolling the scroll wheel while my cursor was over the 'height' number), and without changing the weight. So, 3' tall and 200 lbs. It didn't change my avatar's appearance - no fat hobbits on bikes on my screen. I did a Tour de Zwift ride, not a race, so it wasn't really a competition. I think it was on Innsbruck. At first I was surprised to find myself keeping up on the flat with riders who were doing higher w/kg, but I thought it was just because I was drafting them. On the climb, I was still pushing 200lbs up the hill, so that wasn't any different, but on the descent, I FLEW past people. Just coasting, I cracked 100 km/hr.

When I finished the ride and looked at the numbers, I was HORRIFIED! I was waiting for the Zwift Police to come a-knocking, but they didn't. I rode the same route again later and of course didn't come NEAR the descending speeds I'd hit.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is offline  
Old 02-25-22, 02:51 PM
  #23  
genejockey 
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 17,649

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10242 Post(s)
Liked 11,594 Times in 5,942 Posts
I have been racing on Zwift for a year or so. Not really heavily, maybe a couple races a month. I worry more about sandbaggers than about 'height doping' or 'weight doping', and I don't worry that much about sandbaggers. Plus, I was racing in 'D', so I don't think there are that many people interested in sandbagging D races. I mostly have been on the podium, mostly because there aren't that many people racing at 6PM Pacific time. Now Zwiftpower in its infinite wisdom has seen fit to categorize me as a C, so I guess it's goodbye to all those podium spots.

Originally Posted by GhostRider62
I was joking.

People take that dinky game too seriously
People take EVERY game too seriously. I mean, what part of "game" are they missing?
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is offline  
Old 02-25-22, 10:04 PM
  #24  
himespau 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
himespau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 13,551
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4194 Post(s)
Liked 2,911 Times in 1,780 Posts
I got so tired of sandbaggers that I mainly only race where they aren't an issue. Zwift Racing League has its share of cruisers, but you can't really sandbag, and mass start open races where everyone races together and you're just hunting for the fastest wheel to chase regardless of cat (I know I'll never win those, so it's about finding people that I "shouldn't" be riding with based on ZP numbers and hanging with them as long as I can).
himespau is offline  
Old 02-25-22, 10:21 PM
  #25  
MinnMan
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,733

Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4258 Post(s)
Liked 2,934 Times in 1,809 Posts
Originally Posted by himespau
I got so tired of sandbaggers that I mainly only race where they aren't an issue. Zwift Racing League has its share of cruisers, but you can't really sandbag, and mass start open races where everyone races together and you're just hunting for the fastest wheel to chase regardless of cat (I know I'll never win those, so it's about finding people that I "shouldn't" be riding with based on ZP numbers and hanging with them as long as I can).
Psychology makes sandbagging in Zwift inevitable, and not simply because people want to cheat.

Let's say there's a rider with an FTP of 3.3 or 3.4 W/kg. The official categories say they are a "B". (3.2-3.9), not a "C" (2.5-3.1). If they race in "B", they are going to get creamed by the 3.6-3.9 crowd, so instead they race in "C". Where they demolish the C riders who are following the guidelines.

Those C riders start thinking about racing in "D".....

Now this is happening at all levels, so there are people who should be riding in A (4.0+) b/c they have and FTP of 4.1 and they're getting torched by the stronger A riders. So now the people in the MIDDLE of the B range (3.5-3.6) are getting dropped by riders who are really "A"

Wash, rinse, repeat. The whole thing slides.

If there were enough racers, there would be less sandbagging in a system with more category divisions.
MinnMan is offline  
Likes For MinnMan:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.