dish prob rear wheel - spokes on backwards?
#1
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 451
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 236 Post(s)
Liked 171 Times
in
104 Posts
dish prob rear wheel - spokes on backwards?
lord have mercy it appears i have a dishing problem on my new rear wheel that i just built up. swear i double checked and put the short spokes on drive side .. but this cant be right (and yes, dish tool arms are both flat on rim)?
#4
Happy With My Bikes
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2,186
Bikes: Hi-Ten bike boomers, a Trek Domane and some projects
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 884 Post(s)
Liked 2,307 Times
in
1,117 Posts
I've never built a wheel so this is purely spitballing... But did you by chance get the wrong length spokes?
__________________
"It is the unknown around the corner that turns my wheels." -- Heinz Stücke
"It is the unknown around the corner that turns my wheels." -- Heinz Stücke
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 18,073
Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Mongoose Tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder, Stewart 650B ATB
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4201 Post(s)
Liked 3,857 Times
in
2,305 Posts
It sounds like you trusted the spoke lengths and then nipple turns to insure your first attempt to center the rim. If you got the spoke lengths on the other sides of the wheel then your results make sense. I like to check the aprox dish long before there's any real tension on the spokes, just enough tension to roughly true the rim. Andy
__________________
AndrewRStewart
AndrewRStewart
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 1,851
Bikes: Lemond '01 Maillot Jaune, Lemond '02 Victoire, Lemond '03 Poprad, Lemond '03 Wayzata DB conv(Poprad), '79 AcerMex Windsor Carrera Professional(pur new), '88 GT Tequesta(pur new), '01 Bianchi Grizzly, 1993 Trek 970 DB conv, Trek 8900 DB conv
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 759 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 810 Times
in
471 Posts
Keep going, you're not that far out.
I'm guessing the answer is no, but do you have an accurate tensiometer? If you're new to this it may be tough for you to appreciate/estimate where your tensions are at. You may have a ways to go on the drive side(tensioning it up) and not know how much.
The non-drive side tension is a slave to the drive side. The non-drive side tension will be whatever it will to end up with a properly dished, true, & round wheel. Get the drive side right and non-drive side is what it is.
#8
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 451
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 236 Post(s)
Liked 171 Times
in
104 Posts
Keep going, you're not that far out.
I'm guessing the answer is no, but do you have an accurate tensiometer? If you're new to this it may be tough for you to appreciate/estimate where your tensions are at. You may have a ways to go on the drive side(tensioning it up) and not know how much.
The non-drive side tension is a slave to the drive side. The non-drive side tension will be whatever it will to end up with a properly dished, true, & round wheel. Get the drive side right and non-drive side is what it is.
I'm guessing the answer is no, but do you have an accurate tensiometer? If you're new to this it may be tough for you to appreciate/estimate where your tensions are at. You may have a ways to go on the drive side(tensioning it up) and not know how much.
The non-drive side tension is a slave to the drive side. The non-drive side tension will be whatever it will to end up with a properly dished, true, & round wheel. Get the drive side right and non-drive side is what it is.
#9
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 451
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 236 Post(s)
Liked 171 Times
in
104 Posts
Keep going, you're not that far out.
I'm guessing the answer is no, but do you have an accurate tensiometer? If you're new to this it may be tough for you to appreciate/estimate where your tensions are at. You may have a ways to go on the drive side(tensioning it up) and not know how much.
The non-drive side tension is a slave to the drive side. The non-drive side tension will be whatever it will to end up with a properly dished, true, & round wheel. Get the drive side right and non-drive side is what it is.
I'm guessing the answer is no, but do you have an accurate tensiometer? If you're new to this it may be tough for you to appreciate/estimate where your tensions are at. You may have a ways to go on the drive side(tensioning it up) and not know how much.
The non-drive side tension is a slave to the drive side. The non-drive side tension will be whatever it will to end up with a properly dished, true, & round wheel. Get the drive side right and non-drive side is what it is.
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 1,851
Bikes: Lemond '01 Maillot Jaune, Lemond '02 Victoire, Lemond '03 Poprad, Lemond '03 Wayzata DB conv(Poprad), '79 AcerMex Windsor Carrera Professional(pur new), '88 GT Tequesta(pur new), '01 Bianchi Grizzly, 1993 Trek 970 DB conv, Trek 8900 DB conv
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 759 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 810 Times
in
471 Posts
Then you probably shouldn't. That's the issue with not knowing where you're at with accurate tensions. With an accurate tension meter and monitoring where you're at with respect to uniform tension between spokes on each side and the overall tension on the drive side, you wouldn't have ended up where you are. No worries..it's fixable. Well-experienced wheel builders will say this(a tensiometer) isn't needed(and they are right, for them), however this is sort of like the old joke, Question: "..how do I make a million dollars?", Answer: "...well, you start with a million dollars and then you invest it in...."
https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-m...on-meters.html
You're locked into where you are. At this point I'd back the tension off on both sides by one or two or three revolutions of the spoke wrench(just go around the wheel and back off each spoke by one revolution..then do a second lap and a third if needed. DON'T back off the tensions by skipping to the end by backing off each spoke two or three revolutions at one time..I speak from experience..). Put a piece of tape on one spoke as a reference so you know what one revolution of the wheel is. It'll be easier if you keep things uniform during the entire build within each side spokes and between both side. If you jump around between spokes and sides and tighten things here and there, you'll be chasing your tail for a long time.
Once you've backed off the tensions on both sides, fix the dishing while you can. Then tighten the spokes up uniformly in a series of trips around the wheel while monitoring radial and lateral true and dish as you go.
Roger Musson's e-book will walk you through the process. Follow him step by step and it's relatively easy to do. A good tensiometer makes things MUCH easier. It's the ultimate referee to tell you where you're at in the process, where you need to go, and how to get there. (I have a long history in instrumentaion..so I'm probably biased toward using instruments.)
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Nor-Cal
Posts: 3,767
Bikes: lots
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1958 Post(s)
Liked 2,932 Times
in
1,489 Posts
Why are you posting here and waiting for replies? Take a spoke from the DS and one from the NDS and check. Doesn't get much easier or quicker than that.
Likes For cxwrench:
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bastrop Texas
Posts: 4,478
Bikes: Univega, Peu P6, Peu PR-10, Ted Williams, Peu UO-8, Peu UO-18 Mixte, Peu Dolomites
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 965 Post(s)
Liked 1,629 Times
in
1,045 Posts
Yep... That's the way it is. I got discombobulated on a wheel just like this. With good frustration I loosened everything up and put it aside for a few days. I then pulled it out and trued it up perfectly without difficulty... Go Figure... Ha
__________________
No matter where you're at... There you are... Δf:=f(1/2)-f(-1/2)
No matter where you're at... There you are... Δf:=f(1/2)-f(-1/2)
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,904
Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4806 Post(s)
Liked 3,928 Times
in
2,553 Posts
My thoughts are- you could simply pull a spoke from the LH side and measure it to see if you got the proper lengths on the correct sides. You could just loosen all the spokes and restart the tensioning/dishing process but with the rim "over dished" and pull the rim into correct dish with only tensioning the LH side.
It sounds like you trusted the spoke lengths and then nipple turns to insure your first attempt to center the rim. If you got the spoke lengths on the other sides of the wheel then your results make sense. I like to check the aprox dish long before there's any real tension on the spokes, just enough tension to roughly true the rim. Andy
It sounds like you trusted the spoke lengths and then nipple turns to insure your first attempt to center the rim. If you got the spoke lengths on the other sides of the wheel then your results make sense. I like to check the aprox dish long before there's any real tension on the spokes, just enough tension to roughly true the rim. Andy
I love modern spokes and the wonderful uniformity. But I still check tensions throughout the build and start the dish on derailleur wheels very early. Yes, I do shorter spokes for the right rear but it would never occur to me to think that gave me the right dish.
Edit: My cassettes and freewheels never go on until the wheel is finished and by that time I've checked the dish multiple times.
Last edited by 79pmooney; 05-22-22 at 09:47 PM.
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 1,851
Bikes: Lemond '01 Maillot Jaune, Lemond '02 Victoire, Lemond '03 Poprad, Lemond '03 Wayzata DB conv(Poprad), '79 AcerMex Windsor Carrera Professional(pur new), '88 GT Tequesta(pur new), '01 Bianchi Grizzly, 1993 Trek 970 DB conv, Trek 8900 DB conv
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 759 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 810 Times
in
471 Posts
I doubt the OP would have gotten as far as he did if he switched the spoke-sides. I'm assuming a 2mm difference between drive and non-drive side spokes.
OP..look at the outside edge of the drive side nipples..are spokes sticking out? If so how much? If the spokes are the right length they shouldn't be threaded past the outside edge of the nipple.
OP..look at the outside edge of the drive side nipples..are spokes sticking out? If so how much? If the spokes are the right length they shouldn't be threaded past the outside edge of the nipple.
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: northern Deep South
Posts: 8,901
Bikes: Fuji Touring, Novara Randonee
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2604 Post(s)
Liked 1,928 Times
in
1,210 Posts
Not at all. Think of it as "I broke one spoke on each side and I'm going to replace those two spokes" and, while you're at it, label and measure the two spokes. The other 30 or 34 spokes will wait.
#17
I'm good to go!
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 14,985
Bikes: Tarmac Disc Comp Di2 - 2020
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6193 Post(s)
Liked 4,808 Times
in
3,316 Posts
So if you know a wheel builder, and they are somewhat clued in to the ERD and spoke hole diameters and whatever else needs to be known about the wheel... then have you ask them where the mistake might be?
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 1,851
Bikes: Lemond '01 Maillot Jaune, Lemond '02 Victoire, Lemond '03 Poprad, Lemond '03 Wayzata DB conv(Poprad), '79 AcerMex Windsor Carrera Professional(pur new), '88 GT Tequesta(pur new), '01 Bianchi Grizzly, 1993 Trek 970 DB conv, Trek 8900 DB conv
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 759 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 810 Times
in
471 Posts
Measure the ERD yourself..even posted ERDs by the mfg can be wrong (example.. H Plus Son Archetype). Make sure you account for all thicknesses in the process(rim thickness, nipple head..). I wouldn't depend on someone's estimated ERD..they have nothing at stake. Every spoke seller I've run across state up front that spokes are not returnable. "Measure twice, order once.."
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Nor-Cal
Posts: 3,767
Bikes: lots
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1958 Post(s)
Liked 2,932 Times
in
1,489 Posts
#20
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 451
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 236 Post(s)
Liked 171 Times
in
104 Posts
Thanks all I fixed it. Just tore the entire wheel apart and rebuilt it this time paying much more attention to measuring the dish as i tensioned the spokes. Turns out I was also tightening the wrong side of spokes when attempting to properly dish the wheel.
Thanks for all the advice!
Thanks for all the advice!
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,790
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3510 Post(s)
Liked 2,925 Times
in
1,774 Posts
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Nor-Cal
Posts: 3,767
Bikes: lots
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1958 Post(s)
Liked 2,932 Times
in
1,489 Posts
Thanks all I fixed it. Just tore the entire wheel apart and rebuilt it this time paying much more attention to measuring the dish as i tensioned the spokes. Turns out I was also tightening the wrong side of spokes when attempting to properly dish the wheel.
Thanks for all the advice!
Thanks for all the advice!
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,606
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 581 Post(s)
Liked 921 Times
in
518 Posts
RE. Tightening spoke A then checking for a change in tension on spoke B
I've made the same mistake when tuning my guitar. 'Why won't this damn string get up closer to G!', followed by a loud SNAP as the B string I was inadvertently tightening reaches its breaking point.
I've made the same mistake when tuning my guitar. 'Why won't this damn string get up closer to G!', followed by a loud SNAP as the B string I was inadvertently tightening reaches its breaking point.
Likes For ClydeClydeson:
#24
All Campy All The Time
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posts: 1,417
Bikes: Listed in my signature.
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 177 Post(s)
Liked 114 Times
in
63 Posts
Two observations on using a dishing gauge:
(1) The amount of dishing error indicated by the gauge is actually twice the amount that the rim needs to be moved left or right. As you move the rim laterally by adjusting the spokes, the indicated dishing error decreases on one side and increases on the other side. In the pictures above, an error of about 1/4" really only needs the rim to be moved 1/8".
(2) If the wheel isn't reasonably true laterally, you may get inaccurate results with the dish gauge, depending on how far the rim is out of true at the points where the dish gauge is contacting the rim.
(1) The amount of dishing error indicated by the gauge is actually twice the amount that the rim needs to be moved left or right. As you move the rim laterally by adjusting the spokes, the indicated dishing error decreases on one side and increases on the other side. In the pictures above, an error of about 1/4" really only needs the rim to be moved 1/8".
(2) If the wheel isn't reasonably true laterally, you may get inaccurate results with the dish gauge, depending on how far the rim is out of true at the points where the dish gauge is contacting the rim.
__________________
My C&V Bikes:
1972 Bottecchia Professional, 1972 Legnano Olympiade Record,
1982 Colnago Super, 1987 Bottecchia Team C-Record,
1988 Pinarello Montello, 1990 Masi Nuova Strada Super Record,
1995 Bianchi Campione d'Italia, 1995 DeBernardi Thron
My C&V Bikes:
1972 Bottecchia Professional, 1972 Legnano Olympiade Record,
1982 Colnago Super, 1987 Bottecchia Team C-Record,
1988 Pinarello Montello, 1990 Masi Nuova Strada Super Record,
1995 Bianchi Campione d'Italia, 1995 DeBernardi Thron
Likes For CroMo Mike: