Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

When did vertical drop-outs come into wide-spread use?

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

When did vertical drop-outs come into wide-spread use?

Old 01-02-13, 03:38 PM
  #26  
noglider 
aka Tom Reingold
 
noglider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 40,691

Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem

Mentioned: 510 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7287 Post(s)
Liked 2,365 Times in 1,382 Posts
There are indexed-shifting bikes with horizontal dropouts, though I guess you could argue that it's a compromised design. My mid-90's Bianchi Volpe is an example.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author

Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
noglider is offline  
Old 01-02-13, 04:13 PM
  #27  
Catnap 
Senior Member
 
Catnap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ridgewood, Queens
Posts: 1,839

Bikes: Zunow, 3Rensho, Look KG196

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 151 Post(s)
Liked 448 Times in 176 Posts
the Surly Crosscheck still uses horizontal D.O.'s
__________________
Check out www.djcatnap.com for articles on vintage Japanese & French bicycle restorations, components and history.
Catnap is offline  
Old 01-02-13, 06:56 PM
  #28  
JAG410
Senior Member
 
JAG410's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Moorhead, MN
Posts: 1,020

Bikes: A few ;)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by Catnap
the Surly Crosscheck still uses horizontal D.O.'s
Yup, same with the new All City Space Horse.
JAG410 is offline  
Old 07-06-22, 05:23 PM
  #29  
Fredo76
The Wheezing Geezer
 
Fredo76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Española, NM
Posts: 998

Bikes: 1976 Fredo Speciale, Jamis Citizen 1, Ellis-Briggs FAVORI, Rivendell Clem Smith Jr.

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 395 Post(s)
Liked 857 Times in 422 Posts
The Shimano vertical drop-outs that I used in 1976 in my own frame (see avatar) were the first Shimano vertical drop-outs that anyone in Tucson, including Colin Laing, had ever seen. I chose them because to me they looked exactly like what Campy vertical drop-outs would have looked like, if Campagnolo had offered any then, which they didn't.

I don't know about widespread use, but I'll take undeserved credit for helping to popularize them!


Shimano vertical drop-outs from 1976


Zombifying the internet since 2013!
Fredo76 is online now  
Likes For Fredo76:
Old 07-06-22, 08:53 PM
  #30  
bulgie 
blahblahblah chrome moly
 
bulgie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,980
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1163 Post(s)
Liked 2,542 Times in 1,065 Posts
Originally Posted by Fredo76
I chose them because to me they looked exactly like what Campy vertical drop-outs would have looked like, if Campagnolo had offered any then, which they didn't.
Oh yes they did!
Here's a scan from pg 31 of catalog 15, 1967.



I don't know if they were new in '67, or whether they were in any other earlier catalogs. I first noticed them on a Jack Taylor from maybe '73.

They are a bit cheap looking, stamped rather than forged, with no raised "islands" for the axle nuts. Better builders like the Taylors typically brazed a washer to the inside of the right DO then slotted it, to space the wheel a little further from the stays for chain clearance. There's no way to make them look really nice IMHO, but you can make them quite passable.

On the 2 frames I made for myself in '77, I used Art Stump verticals, investment cast stainless, quite pretty.



I considered using GP Wilson verticals, also cast stainless. Wilson used a super-strong stainless, 17-4 PH, which let him make them very thin and light but still strong. Not as sculptural as Stump's though, to my eye. Stump and Wilson knew each other and were aware of each other's work, but I don't know who first came up with the idea of cast SS vertical DOs. I wouldn't say either one copied the other, they were both innovative.

Pretty much all the French constructeurs of touring and randonneur bikes from the '30s on preferred verticals, though you will see Campy 1010 horizontals on a lot of Singers in this country because so many of them were sold by Spence Wolf, and that's how he spec'd 'em.

Mark B
bulgie is offline  
Likes For bulgie:
Old 07-07-22, 01:05 AM
  #31  
merziac
Senior Member
 
merziac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 14,101

Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2

Mentioned: 267 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4494 Post(s)
Liked 6,300 Times in 3,633 Posts
Originally Posted by Fredo76
I chose them because to me they looked exactly like what Campy vertical drop-outs would have looked like, if Campagnolo had offered any then, which they didn't.
merziac is offline  
Old 07-07-22, 07:28 AM
  #32  
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 24,936

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3571 Post(s)
Liked 3,367 Times in 1,916 Posts
Originally Posted by Fredo76
The Shimano vertical drop-outs that I used in 1976 in my own frame (see avatar) were the first Shimano vertical drop-outs that anyone in Tucson, including Colin Laing, had ever seen. I chose them because to me they looked exactly like what Campy vertical drop-outs would have looked like, if Campagnolo had offered any then, which they didn't.
Campagnolo offered the #1060 vertical dropouts since the mid-60s. They were popular on British bikes BITD.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
campagnolo-dropouts.jpg (127.9 KB, 127 views)
JohnDThompson is offline  
Old 07-07-22, 07:45 AM
  #33  
nlerner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,127
Mentioned: 480 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3788 Post(s)
Liked 6,574 Times in 2,580 Posts
Campy vertical dropout on a '73 Raleigh RRA:

nlerner is offline  
Old 07-07-22, 08:10 AM
  #34  
Fredo76
The Wheezing Geezer
 
Fredo76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Española, NM
Posts: 998

Bikes: 1976 Fredo Speciale, Jamis Citizen 1, Ellis-Briggs FAVORI, Rivendell Clem Smith Jr.

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 395 Post(s)
Liked 857 Times in 422 Posts
Darn! Wrong, again! I guess Campy DID make vertical dropouts in 1976, just not nice ones...

Thanks for the corrections.
Fredo76 is online now  
Old 07-07-22, 10:13 AM
  #35  
gugie 
Bike Butcher of Portland
 
gugie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,641

Bikes: It's complicated.

Mentioned: 1299 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4670 Post(s)
Liked 5,769 Times in 2,272 Posts
By "wide spread use", we're not talking about the vertical dropouts on my 1948 Peugeot PH60 - they're fairly rare.



Wide spread here in the US would mean production bikes sold in the US. We should also minimize the discussion to steel frames, almost all aluminum frames have vertical drops I believe. Mountain bikes switched over to vertical dropouts earlier than road bikes, so perhaps we should also limit the discussion to road bikes.

As a proxy, I suggest we look at Specialized and Trek. The catalogs are in this link. A quick Trek's 520 had vertical dropouts in 1990, for example.

__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.

Last edited by gugie; 07-07-22 at 10:17 AM.
gugie is offline  
Likes For gugie:
Old 07-07-22, 10:46 AM
  #36  
Steel Charlie
Senior Member
 
Steel Charlie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 902
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 355 Post(s)
Liked 489 Times in 261 Posts
Originally Posted by john hawrylak
I remember an article on Sheldon Brown's site stating the vertical DOs were required to obtain the accuracy needed for indexed shifting.
That's simply not true. I have had index shift Shimano from 6 to 9 speed on a variety of horizontal drop out bikes. Exactly None have received or required any special attention.

My late '70s Caylor has the Campy vertical drop outs. With the washer on the inside of the right one.
Steel Charlie is offline  
Old 07-07-22, 08:34 PM
  #37  
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 24,936

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3571 Post(s)
Liked 3,367 Times in 1,916 Posts
Originally Posted by Fredo76
Darn! Wrong, again! I guess Campy DID make vertical dropouts in 1976, just not nice ones...
I braze a stainless steel washer to the face of the 1060 dropouts to improve things:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
dropout-face1.jpg (49.8 KB, 98 views)
JohnDThompson is offline  
Likes For JohnDThompson:
Old 07-07-22, 09:04 PM
  #38  
bulgie 
blahblahblah chrome moly
 
bulgie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,980
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1163 Post(s)
Liked 2,542 Times in 1,065 Posts
I posted the Campy catalog scan of the 1060 verticals, then realized Jeff Wills posted them already to this very thread way back in 2013, post #16
https://www.bikeforums.net/15107717-post16.html

Darn zombies! I should try to remember to check the dates and histories on threads before I go spouting off... Nah!
bulgie is offline  
Old 07-07-22, 09:10 PM
  #39  
bulgie 
blahblahblah chrome moly
 
bulgie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,980
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1163 Post(s)
Liked 2,542 Times in 1,065 Posts
Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
I braze a stainless steel washer to the face of the 1060 dropouts to improve things:
That was also handy for a race bike that might get a neutral-support wheel. You needed your dropouts to be the same thickness as Campy 1010 so the QR would close with the right tension, or your wheel change would take much longer.

My race toolbox used to have two pair of 1010 dropouts (front and rear) for setting the QRs on spare wheels.

Then nonferrous frames started having all sorts of different thicknesses of dropouts, and we lost that de facto standard thickness. Don't even get me started on disk and through-axle on roadrace bikes, so dumb!
bulgie is offline  
Likes For bulgie:
Old 07-07-22, 10:43 PM
  #40  
merziac
Senior Member
 
merziac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 14,101

Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2

Mentioned: 267 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4494 Post(s)
Liked 6,300 Times in 3,633 Posts
Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
I braze a stainless steel washer to the face of the 1060 dropouts to improve things:
That also gives it the bolstered look we all know and love instead of the plain stamped kludge look.
merziac is offline  
Old 07-08-22, 06:31 AM
  #41  
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 24,936

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3571 Post(s)
Liked 3,367 Times in 1,916 Posts
Originally Posted by bulgie
Then nonferrous frames started having all sorts of different thicknesses of dropouts, and we lost that de facto standard thickness. Don't even get me started on disk and through-axle on roadrace bikes, so dumb!
The prevalence of "lawyer lips" on fork ends got people accustomed to unscrewing and screwing quick releases (obviating the very idea of "quick release" IMO) to remove and replace the wheel, rather than adjusting the quick release once, then simply flipping the lever to remove or replace the wheel.
JohnDThompson is offline  
Likes For JohnDThompson:
Old 07-08-22, 09:23 AM
  #42  
bamboobike4
Banned.
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 1,070
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 359 Post(s)
Liked 581 Times in 335 Posts
When did vertical drop-outs come into wide-spread use?

I think it was the era after they came into normal-spread use, which followed the narrow-spread use era.

Or maybe I misunderstood the question.
bamboobike4 is offline  
Old 07-08-22, 09:24 AM
  #43  
bamboobike4
Banned.
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 1,070
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 359 Post(s)
Liked 581 Times in 335 Posts
Originally Posted by merziac
the bolstered look we all know and love
Same time as shoulder pads and big hair?
bamboobike4 is offline  
Old 07-08-22, 09:26 AM
  #44  
bamboobike4
Banned.
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 1,070
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 359 Post(s)
Liked 581 Times in 335 Posts
There is a lot going on right there.

Originally Posted by gugie
bamboobike4 is offline  
Old 07-08-22, 09:44 AM
  #45  
himespau 
Senior Member
 
himespau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 13,553
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4199 Post(s)
Liked 2,913 Times in 1,781 Posts
Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
The prevalence of "lawyer lips" on fork ends got people accustomed to unscrewing and screwing quick releases (obviating the very idea of "quick release" IMO) to remove and replace the wheel, rather than adjusting the quick release once, then simply flipping the lever to remove or replace the wheel.
I'm too lazy to file off the lawyer lips, but one of these days I'll get around to it. Been saying that for years though.
himespau is offline  
Old 07-08-22, 09:58 AM
  #46  
bamboobike4
Banned.
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 1,070
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 359 Post(s)
Liked 581 Times in 335 Posts
Originally Posted by himespau
I'm too lazy to file off the lawyer lips, but one of these days I'll get around to it. Been saying that for years though.
I saw what you did there.
bamboobike4 is offline  
Old 07-08-22, 02:47 PM
  #47  
T-Mar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 23,233
Mentioned: 652 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4719 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3,034 Times in 1,874 Posts
Originally Posted by Steel Charlie
That's simply not true. I have had index shift Shimano from 6 to 9 speed on a variety of horizontal drop out bikes. Exactly None have received or required any special attention.


My late '70s Caylor has the Campy vertical drop outs. With the washer on the inside of the right one.

I said it back in 2013, in post #17, and I'll say it again. Vertical dropouts eliminate one of the variables that owners can unwittingly alter and have a negative effect on indexed shifting performance. Shimano had the best performing indexed system in the late 1980s. Some others, such as Accushift and Syncro, could be incredibly finicky. There were lots of complaints and mechanics who unfamiliar with index shifting, could make things worse. Establishing a fixed and optimal axle postion relative to the derailleur mount helps to provide a correct chain gap which is an important parameter for good indexed shifting. Vertical dropouts eliminated this variable and therefore were a step towards mistakeproofing and increased customer satisfaction. Of course, indexed systems can work just fine with horizontal dropopts but it can also be adversely affected if the axle postion is incorrect. While vertical dropouts have a long history, widespread adoption occurred after the introduction of indexed shifting.
T-Mar is offline  
Likes For T-Mar:
Old 07-12-22, 03:19 PM
  #48  
Steel Charlie
Senior Member
 
Steel Charlie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 902
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 355 Post(s)
Liked 489 Times in 261 Posts
I objected to the term "required". Simply not true.
Steel Charlie is offline  
Old 07-13-22, 06:16 AM
  #49  
smd4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,642

Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3431 Post(s)
Liked 2,826 Times in 1,723 Posts
Originally Posted by T-Mar
While vertical dropouts have a long history, widespread adoption occurred after the introduction of indexed shifting.
I think this perfectly answers the OP's question.
smd4 is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Classic & Vintage
106
02-18-23 01:18 AM
maxm
Classic & Vintage
1
04-24-18 08:04 AM
cehowardGS
Classic & Vintage
76
10-31-11 03:34 PM
michaelwc
Classic & Vintage
21
03-19-10 04:40 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.