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Swapping to fixed and I want black wheels...

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Swapping to fixed and I want black wheels...

Old 10-19-18, 02:25 PM
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barnabaas
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Swapping to fixed and I want black wheels...

So I've been riding my Wabi classic for a few weeks now and when I bought it it came with a freewheel hub. It's nice. However I'm itching to switch over to fixed. I'm also wanting to change some things aesthetically on the bike (ie. black wheels) and I've got a few questions. From what I've researched the H Plus Son's are a decently popular brand, well made, not SUPER expensive etc. Fits the bill for me. So the problem I'm running into now is there's a set of H Plus Son's with Grand Compe hubs attached to them. So that brings the price up on them a bit plus I'd still have to add the new cog and lock ring. Are those new Grand Compe hubs worth it and will I even noticed a big enough difference between the already pretty nice wheels the Wabi came with? OR do I just save myself almost $150 and just get the regular H Plus Son wheel set and or considering another wheel set all together?

Thanks for hearing me out. I get analysis paralysis sometimes.
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Old 10-19-18, 03:39 PM
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What are the hubs on the cheaper H+ wheels you're looking at?
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Old 10-19-18, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by seau grateau
What are the hubs on the cheaper H+ wheels you're looking at?
Formula Origin8 branded Black track Hubs
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Old 10-19-18, 03:57 PM
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Formula hubs are decent. Gran Compes are definitely a little nicer when it comes to their finish, they may be a bit lighter (definitely lighter if you go with the low flange ones), and are more commonly available with fixed threading on both sides, which is a plus IMO. They're going to ride about the same though. Hubs don't really have much appreciable difference on how your bike feels and performs on the road as long as they don't have junk bearings.
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Old 10-19-18, 03:58 PM
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There's nothing wrong with Formulas. They just aren't super sexy.

But I'd spring for the hubs you really want. In the greater scheme of things nice wheels are one of the more sensible things to spend your fixed gear dollars on and you can always swap them to a new bike down the road. A lot of other parts end up being specific to your frame (headsets, bottom brackets etc) and often don't fit your next bike.

I had some Archetypes built for me with Suzue Pro Max hubs and they are great wheels.
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Old 10-19-18, 04:34 PM
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I own H+Son Archetypes with Gran Compe short flange hubs. They are fixed/fixed.

Mine weigh 1610 grams as shipped including track nuts. Some retailers post lighter weights on their website. Wabi's standard wheels are listed as 1725g so you weight savings will be a little over 100 grams give or take The Archetypes might be a little wider as well.

If you are thinking of black - it took about 400 miles for the anodizing to wear off the brake track to the point where braking was good. Braking in the wet before the anodizing wore off was frightening.

818 miles on them so not a long term test but no issues so far. I'm 168 lb and the roads in my area are good.


-Tim-

Last edited by TimothyH; 10-19-18 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 10-19-18, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by seau grateau
Hubs don't really have much appreciable difference on how your bike feels and performs on the road as long as they don't have junk bearings.
Interesting. So they don't necessarily make the ride any smoother...just more of a solid look / feel / component. I never knew that

Originally Posted by nightfly
But I'd spring for the hubs you really want. In the greater scheme of things nice wheels are one of the more sensible things to spend your fixed gear dollars on and you can always swap them to a new bike down the road.
I had some Archetypes built for me with Suzue Pro Max hubs and they are great wheels.
I mean I just don't really know the difference / if I want them. I like the idea of better components but at the same time is that $150 better off in my pocket for some other super nice components or something.

Originally Posted by TimothyH
I own H+Son Archetypes with Gran Compe short flange hubs. They are fixed/fixed.

Mine weigh 1610 grams as shipped including track nuts. Some retailers post lighter weights on their website. Wabi's standard wheels are listed as 1725g so you weight savings will be a little over 100 grams give or take The Archetypes might be a little wider as well.

If you are thinking of black - it took about 400 miles for the anodizing to wear off the brake track to the point where braking was good. Braking in the wet before the anodizing wore off was frightening.

-Tim-
My Wabi's wheels weight around 1725g and the H Plus Son's around around 2150 or 2110. So adding some weight in this case. That also makes me question whether or not it's really worth it - my head tells me I won't notice those grams however. Speaking of braking and black wheels. I'm assuming since they're machined sidewalls which is anodized that running a front brake won't scrub off the black around the front wheel right??

The Gran Compe's are high flange for the record.

Thanks for the help y'all.
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Old 10-19-18, 05:59 PM
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As others have stated, you likely won’t notice any difference on the road, so if it’s more about the rims, then save yourself some money and go with the cheaper hubset. Also, as already stated, the brake track will wear away, and pretty quick too. I have a set of black Son TB14’s and the anodising on the brake track lasted decently well until the first time I rode in the rain, then it was gone. I would venture to guess you’ll get somewhere between 1-400 miles before the black on the brake track is gone. Depending on how hard and often you use the brakes. But it will start to wear, from the first time you use the brakes. Just something to keep in mind. Sons are great rims though. Ive run nothing but Tb14’s On 3 of my 4 bikes, including my daily commuter and I love them.

a photo to show the anodising absolutely wears away: the front rim used to be black like the rear (front brake only setup)


Last edited by seamuis; 10-19-18 at 06:10 PM.
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Old 10-19-18, 06:19 PM
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That's super helpful thanks. Also kinda a bummer that it happens but it all makes sense why. Yea I mean it's mainly about the look of the black wheels - no shame - so now I'm second guessing the whole thing considering this is probably bound to happen. My wheels do have black around them (minus where it was rubbed off from braking), just not black spokes. Are there any types of black wheels where this kinda thing doesn't happen?
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Old 10-19-18, 06:28 PM
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Saving weight on the rims is a lot more important than saving weight at the hub. It's the outside diameter where you feel the weight difference when riding. Getting lighter tires/tubes make a huge difference as well. The H+'s will also be more comfortable if they are indeed wider. Hub quality doesn't really matter unless you plan on abusing them. They should all ride about the same, but their durability is what the premium in price comes from.
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Old 10-19-18, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by barnabaas
Are there any types of black wheels where this kinda thing doesn't happen?
Disc brakes or no brakes
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Old 10-19-18, 07:28 PM
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Or carbon.
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Old 10-19-18, 08:27 PM
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Gotcha! So I guess in the end I'd be going up in weight, but also gaining more width 18.2mm with the Wabi wheels to 23mm with the H+Son's. Maybe I'll save the cash and put it towards something else until I decide or find that end all bike I want to last foreva. Thanks everyone!
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Old 10-20-18, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by barnabaas
My Wabi's wheels weight around 1725g and the H Plus Son's around around 2150 or 2110. So adding some weight in this case. That also makes me question whether or not it's really worth it - my head tells me I won't notice those grams however. Speaking of braking and black wheels. I'm assuming since they're machined sidewalls which is anodized that running a front brake won't scrub off the black around the front wheel right??

The Gran Compe's are high flange for the record.
Adding weight is a downgrade IMO. 400 grams is almost a pound. It might not be noticeable on a heavy bike but it will be noticeable on a light bike. Some in the SSFG forums have been very vocal about their disdain for narrow wheels and tires but I would trade some width for less weight on road wheels any day. I've run Wabi Sub 15's hard for several thousand miles - they are 13.2 mm inside width, 1460 grams and run 25 mm tires. It handles and rides fine if you like a sporty, aggressive ride but a wider rim is probably a better solution if you want lower pressures for a more plush ride.

As others have made clear, if you run a brake then expect the anodizing to be gone in under 400 miles, much less if you ride in the rain. The photo below shows where it has not completely worn off on one side of the front wheel, near where it says "PLUS." It makes me wonder about the quality of these wheels, if the rim width is not consistent, because the pads are clearly not making contact with the braking surface at that spot.




The hubs I have are Gran Compe SF.

SF = short flange. Sorry I didn't make that clear. Again, short flange are lighter. The bike easily weighs <16 lbs.




-Tim-

Last edited by TimothyH; 10-20-18 at 12:24 AM.
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Old 10-20-18, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by TimothyH
Adding weight is a downgrade IMO. 400 grams is almost a pound. It might not be noticeable on a heavy bike but it will be noticeable on a light bike. Some in the SSFG forums have been very vocal about their disdain for narrow wheels and tires but I would trade some width for less weight on road wheels any day. I've run Wabi Sub 15's hard for several thousand miles - they are 13.2 mm inside width, 1460 grams and run 25 mm tires. It handles and rides fine if you like a sporty, aggressive ride but a wider rim is probably a better solution if you want lower pressures for a more plush ride.
Well now I'm wondering if I should take the 'look' of the bike in another direction because regardless I'll be running a front brake. The added weight being a downgrade was my initial thought but now you got me thinking even more about it! The whole point of my bike here was to be my super light commuter bike so adding another lb doesn't sound appealing. Not a HUGE deal but ya know. Also the fact that the black wheel will eventually look almost exactly like what I have now doesn't make me feel it's worth the money anymore. Maybe instead of blacking out most of my components I go for a more classic silver / chrome look. (told you I get analysis paralysis). Thinking it might be worth just spending the extra $$ on Wabi sub 15's if I ever change them out. So what's the difference between outside width of a wheel and inside width? My understanding is the outside width would allow you to run a wider tire - but depending on the inside width that would either make the tire bulge out more or less? Can someone explain how those two relate to each other??

Originally Posted by TimothyH
SF = short flange. Sorry I didn't make that clear. Again, short flange are lighter. The bike easily weighs <16 lbs.
Damn that's light! Nice!
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Old 10-20-18, 10:23 AM
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They are currently Out of Stock on the Archetypes to Formulas, but Velomine has the TB14's laced to Formula hubs for $199 in black/black. You could email and they'd probably be able to tell you when they expect more to be instock. The Archetypes to Formulas are also only $199.
H + Plus Son TB14 Black - 32h Formula Track Hubs Wheelset [0072774740178] - $199.00 Velomine.com : Worldwide Bicycle Shop, fixed gear track bike wheelsets campagnolo super record vintage bike
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Old 10-20-18, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by barnabaas
So what's the difference between outside width of a wheel and inside width? My understanding is the outside width would allow you to run a wider tire - but depending on the inside width that would either make the tire bulge out more or less? Can someone explain how those two relate to each other??


Inside (inner) rim width is what matters in terms of how wide a tire can safely be fitted and how wide any given tire will be stretched.

Outside width is really only a concern for aerodynamics and fitting brakes.

Conventional wisdom states that a wide tire on a narrow inside width rim will push the tire into a light bulb shape. This is can lead to the tire folding over in turns and unpredictable or unsafe handling. The graphic below illustrates the idea.



Some claim to have felt this behavior. I'm not saying they didn't but wonder if they are using very wide tires on very narrow wheels at low pressures. I have not noticed anything like this with 13.2 mm inside width Wabi Sub 15's and 25 mm Vittoria Rubino tires at 90 PSI.
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Old 10-20-18, 08:54 PM
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Interesting, thanks for the insight Tim.

I'm running 28's on my stock wabi wheels which seem to have the same inner and outer measurements as the sub 15's. I felt a small difference going from the 23's I had on there originally but I'm thinking going up to a 32 or something which they claim to be able to handle might be pushing this feeling you're mentioning.

Thanks for the link Dan
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Old 10-26-18, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by TimothyH
Conventional wisdom states that a wide tire on a narrow inside width rim will push the tire into a light bulb shape. This is can lead to the tire folding over in turns and unpredictable or unsafe handling.
Just how closely should the tire width and inside rim width match? For example, what rims can run 23mm tires? Or 28mm tires? 45mm? Is there a rule of thumb for this?
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Old 10-27-18, 04:13 AM
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BWW has a lot of great deals. Click on the coupon link at the bottom for discount codes and look in the clearance section as well. I bought some road tubular wheels from them with their Pure brand rims and they're outstanding. And they're built really well, haven't had to true them once. I like the ones with Mavic CXP22 rims, DT spokes and Formula hubs. With the code they only cost $126.25.

Bicycle Wheel Warehouse

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Old 10-27-18, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by anotherkenny
Just how closely should the tire width and inside rim width match? For example, what rims can run 23mm tires? Or 28mm tires? 45mm? Is there a rule of thumb for this?
They won't match. To give you a general idea, 10-15 years ago, most road rims were around 13mm internal width (18 external) and run with 23mm tires. I run "28mm" tires on a set of rims like this, and they measure out to around 26.5mm wide when mounted.

There are some charts floating around from tire and rim manufacturers that purport to tell you what sizes you can safely use together, but for liability reasons, they are extremely conservative.

One thing worth mentioning is that, even though a wide tire/narrow rim combo will not be as wide as a wide tire on a wide rim, it'll still be nice and tall, giving you better compliance than a short, skinny tire.
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Old 10-27-18, 09:05 PM
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Everyone runs wider tires than the manufacturers say is safe.

Rim manufacturers claim you will die if wide tires on narrow rims because they want you to buy wide rims.

Mavic said the opposite and published a so called "engineering report" which said that running wide tires on wider rims ruined handling and posed a safety risk. The engineer's findings were very convenient given that Mavic didn't offer wide rims at the time. Now they offer wider rims and the engineering report is nowhere to be found.
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Old 11-03-18, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by hairnet
Disc brakes or no brakes
Alex r450s. Got almost 1000 mi on them, black looks good as new.

Dave
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Old 09-01-21, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by barnabaas
Interesting, thanks for the insight Tim.

I'm running 28's on my stock wabi wheels which seem to have the same inner and outer measurements as the sub 15's. I felt a small difference going from the 23's I had on there originally but I'm thinking going up to a 32 or something which they claim to be able to handle might be pushing this feeling you're mentioning.

Thanks for the link Dan
Did you ever go to the 32s on your wheels and did you ever get the sub 15s? I'm in the same boat as you - have the classic wheels and planning on upgrading them to the 28s and also thinking about upgrading to the sub15s w/ 28s. But always wanted to know if 32s are the right way to go. I got thinking getting a heavier 32 paired with a lighter sub15 seemed contradictory.
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