cat0020

"Often" is not a real number.
and
You fail to answer: does majority of rider need that much info for their cycling?

fooferdoggie 

I ride 100 miles on my commute its the same every day I dont need to look at the range. I look at the range on our tandem every ride. if you only taker short rides its not a big deal but if you're going 50 miles you sure was to know your range. but I have used the range to see how my new tires gave me more range on my commute.

cat0020

You seem to be hung up on anecdotal example; based on your single data point as a rider.

Do you think majority of ebike riders need battery range info that is provided by the Bosch system?
Do you think majority of ebike riders need to spend the extra cost of a Bosch system for their cycling activities?
Do you honestly think that no hub-motor ebikes can be more cost effective as mid-drive ebikes for majority of ebike riders or perspective riders out there?
How does your single data source help the majority of riders out there that my be interested in ebikes?

ARider2

I love it, 2 months and 78 posts later and the OP has never checked in yet the mid drive versus hub motor debate rages on! I cast my vote for a mid drive as I like the way they ride. Mid drive costs more to buy and operate but I prefer the feel of it to a hub drive. OTOH the labor cost to fix a rear flat tire is higher on a rear hub motor than a mid drive.

fooferdoggie 

first your argument was accuracy in specs and range I showed you thats not always the case then it was a argument on how often I use it. Now its a garment how often others would use it. its a moving argument really. of course most wont need most people who ride e bikes seldom go far or even peddle.

cat0020

Wrong, my first arguement has always been about the "majority".
Majority of ebike companies don't provide accurate specs & range info to their ebikes.
Majority of riders do not need to spend thousands more for a mid-drive over hub drive.
Majority of riders seldom "pedal" doesn't mean that 250w mid-drive will always out-climb a 750w hub drive in hills.

Even with mid-drive motor power output specs; if you have a dirty drivetrain, the motor output will be very differentfrom factory spec and eat into your battery range, maybe even less hill climbing ability.

You're the one that branched off with below:

cat0020

Maybe you can specify what hub-motor ebike you have ridden or owned in comparison? and for how long?

I fix my own flat tires, hub motor wheel does require different approach, but with enough practice it's no bigger deal than any other bike wheel.
If the weight of the hub motor wheel is too heavy to take off the bike, flip the ebike upside down and replace the tube/tire without disconnecting the wiring or taking the wheel off the bike completely.

m@Robertson

Well, I have built hub geared hub bikes that I put thousands of miles on commuting on flat land. One commuter to rule them all had/has twin 35a controllers (single 52v pack with 90a continuous-rated BMS) and synchronized PAS along with connected brake cutoffs etc. I geared it so on PAS it reached about 30 mph and then I could bust my ass taking it up over that to around 32-34.

Then one day I took it to a place that was all hills. One day's riding showed me that hub motors are out of their element in hills, as did subsequent rides. In response I took another frame from the same manufacturer (a Chumba Ursa Major, but this time a ti frame I got a deal on) and this second time I put the same front hub in, but a mid drive on the back.

Totally different story. For all the reasons stated above. A hub motor is out of its element in hills. Period. A hub motor is used on cheaper bikes for a reason: Its cheaper. Its not better. Its cheaper. Its great where it is in its element. Take it out of that element and it is not great. And it shouldn't be. Wrong tool for the job.

That guy grunting his way up Eldred Street (you can hear him huffing and puffing and the bike is crawling) is emblematic of the difference. Yes thats an impressive climb ... for a hub motor. But its nothing for a mid drive and more importantly that bike is climbing up that hill with a hard working rider without any cargo in it.

I am re-graveling my back yard and, since my cargo bike is not happy carrying more than 100 lbs of gravel, I am traveling up the steep hill from Home Depot only two bags at a time (I'm making a lot of trips).

Give that guy with the cargo bike something more than an empty bike and then send him off to climb a hill. No need to do Eldred St. Try something half that difficult like one of mine in Monterey/Pacific Grove CA or San Francisco, which are about the same. Watch what happens. Watch the guy on the mid drive try the same hill. Its worth mentioning that the Lectric cargo bike is a neat, low-cost product that is set to do good things for a society that needs auto replacements. It is a disservice to it to drag what is otherwise a great, if entry-level, tool into this nonsense.

I know I'm not getting into evidence or putting out graphs or whatever... but I am the guy who has built them both, has ridden them daily as daily drivers for thousands of miles each, multiple bikes in each category, so, that angle is covered.

Besides that, you don't need me to jump in and educate the community. Everyone above pretty much covered the topic very, very well already.

cat0020

I'm the guy who has built them both, also.
I've converted regular bicycle into ebikes with (direct drive & geared) hub motor, BBSHD & BBSO2 motors since 2003; ridden thousands of miles on each type of motor.
IME, majority of riders don't need to spend the extra money for mid-drive ebikes.

Maybe in a few years the cost for mid-drive would come down to the level of geared hub-drive (very doubtful that will occur) and your riding involves climbing steep hills with a heavy load on most (or every) ride you take.
How often do you have to carry 100 lb. of gravel up a hill anyway? 3 times a week? Is it really worth the hundreds if not thousands more in cost?

Until then, hub motors are plenty capable for majority of cyclists out there.
Hub motor ebikes cost hundreds of not thousands less than mid-drive ebikes, they require less maintenance, and less dependent on drivetrain for overall mobility; that's just simple reality.

late

Different strokes for different folks..

Having said that, Maine doesn't do flat much, I live on a big hill that says it's a mountain on the map. That's cute, while it's big for a hill, it's no mountain.

Anyway, there are a lot more people in NYC than there are in Maine. But if I lived there, I'd still prefer mid-drive.

cat0020

Sure, everyone is different. I've tested, owned & ridden both hub motor & mid-drive, easily thousand miles each type.
How much have you ridden on each type to give decent comparison?
Can you share your riding experience on both types of ebikes?
which brand?
which model?
for how much have you ridden on each type of motor?

I've lived in Seattle, currently commuting in NYC, reside in Philly.
During the weekdays, I cycle in NYC, on the weekends, I ride in Philly.
More recently, I pedal both types of ebikes up the Manayunk Wall just on my weekend 30 mile ride:
https://veloviewer.com/segment/612783/Manayunk+Wall

Both types of ebikes get me up the same hill with minimal effort, difference is hundreds if not thousands of dollars spent.
I rather spend that money to travel somewhere, ride somewhere I've never been
and
not worry about my multi-thousand dollar ebike might get stolen each time I walk away from it
or
have to replace it when something is wrong or damaged.