genejockey 

Basically anything other than small round tubes.

PeteHski

I thought steel frames were still pretty much made from small round tubes e.g.

https://ciclicorsa.com/shop/columbus-spirit-tube-set/

genejockey 

Not so small anymore. And often, not so round, either.
https://ciclicorsa.com/shop/columbus-max-steel-tubes/

But for example, my 1996 Ritchey Road Logic already has considerably larger diameter tubing - though still round - than any of my steel bikes from the 80s. Bu they're small compared to my Battaglin's MAX tubes, which are generally only round for a bit between the ends, which are ovalised in opposite orientations.

PeteHski

Okay thanks, I hadn't really noticed steel tube diameters getting larger. That makes sense.

big chainring 

My first ten speed had steel cottered cranks. Couldnt wait to get rid of those weighty beasts. The cotterless alloy sets I had, TA and Campagnolo seemed to have a bit of flex to them but were a vast improvement. Then I experienced the Nervar Sport steel cotterless. Really like these and are elegant. Maybe thats the appeal of vintage bikes to me, they have an elegance.
I keep up with whatever group I jump into on the weekend. Riding skills arent determined by the bike you ride and I figure my skills far exceed the rest of the riders I encounter(50 years cycling in the legs). Love my Super Course. All the bike I need. In a few weeks and few more base miles I'll put on my vintage tubular wheels and I'll be stylin'.

Ramshackle

The problem is not innovation per se, but that it hasn't lead to lower prices. The first computer I bought in 1985 cost $1,600 and had two floppy drives. That $1,600 today would buy a much more sophisticated computer. You would imagine that by now manufacturing efficiencies in bikes would result in lower prices; instead, when I go into a bike shop I see a basic brand name carbon bike with a 105 group set costing upwards of $2,500. Are the bike innovations like indexed shifting, more aero, disk brakes, etc., so incredible as to justify the high price?

DMC707

My custom track bike before paint -- the tubes are as big as an early Cannondale's.

livedarklions

Ben Serotta was using "Colorado Concept" tubes back in the 1980s, tapered tubes, some ovalized. I think he also invented the s-curve in the chain stays. My 1995 Serotta Atlanta is definitely the most fun bike I've ever ridden.

genejockey 

Hmmmm. In 1997, I bought a Ritchey Road Logic with full Dura Ace that listed for $3000. It had 8 speeds, STI levers, 32 spoke wheels, and dual pivot brakes, all on a light steel frame. Weighed about 21lbs, which was pretty good for a 58cm steel bike back then. Two years ago, I bought a 2020 Canyon Endurace for $2400. It came with 105, disc brakes, 11 speeds, and weighs about 18 lbs. CPI inflation calculator says $3000 in 1997 = $4800 in 2020, so adjusted for inflation, the Canyon was half the price of the Ritchey, but with better brakes, wider gearing, more aerodynamic, and also lighter.

However, there are big problems with the comparison. Computers are constantly developing, getting faster, with more memory, etc as the technology advances. It's not really manufacturing efficiency that drives the economy, it's the advancing technology.

Bikes, OTOH, are a 19th century technology where the advances in technology are largely incremental. They're the same basic shape and work the same way they have for many decades. There's not the room for improvement there is with computers. Still, 3000 2022 dollars gets you a more capable bike than 3000 1997 dollars got you.

genejockey 

MAX was introduced in 1987, and Tange was making 'Aero' tubesets in the mid 1980s. My 1989 Schwinn Circuit uses Tange's ovalized "aero" seatstays.

Daniel4

I'm always being passed on trails and bike lanes. Maybe it's because I'm 60yo and don't feel I need to race anymore or that my bike is 43 yo and doesn't have all the innovations since I bought it.

Or both.

livedarklions

All at about the same time.

Serotta put the s bend in the chain stays for the 1984 Olympic team. Everybody made fun of it then copied it.

genejockey 

Yep. Mid-80s to about 2000 was a great time in cycling tech.

livedarklions

I think many of the 1990s steel frames were innovative masterpieces, they just got overshadowed by the rise of the new materials.

genejockey 

Oh, definitely. Funny thing - I've had C&V riders been asked whether my MAX bike was Aluminum, the tubes are so much much bigger than they're used to.

Fredo76

I haven't ridden a fancy new racing bike, so I can't comment on the performance differences. I can comment on the prices, however.

In the middle of the '70s, as a teenager, I built three SOTA, TOTL racing bikes, with money from my paper route.

Which teenagers have $45 grand today? Influencers?

DMC707

a hand built Ritchey with Dura Ace vs a direct to consumer Canyon with 105 is not a valid comparison

yes - it’s a better bike because time marches on, but your early steed is an artisan build more in line to compare to a new Dura Ace S Works or Litespeed — or Ritchey - I think they are still cranking out bikes

Ost up pics of the Ritchey !!

70sSanO

My MAX. It is steel, not titanium...

John

DMC707

Niiiiiice!

genejockey 

The Road Logic of the 1990s was, I believe, TIG welded offshore, finished up on the Peninsula, and then painted by D&D over in San Leandro. And purchased by me in Palo Alto.


The Ritchey after I updated the STIs and RD to 7800 so I wouldn't be limited to 39x25.

Oh, and speaking of Litespeed......


This is during its second iteration, which it wore from February to mid-May. Now R8000 Ultegra - same reason as the update to the Ritchey.

genejockey 

Mine. Also not Titanium.

PeteHski

So basically modern tech gives you a better bike for less money or an even better bike for more money. Top end bikes have always been relatively expensive. When I was a kid in the 70s/80s I was lusting after bikes from the TDF peloton and they were way out of my league - silly prices for the time as I recall.

Trakhak

Have to admit that CheGuevaraForLife is a skilled troll. With almost every thread he starts, he does the opening post and maybe one or two more, and the rest of us are good for at least 5 or 6 pages of snapping at the bait.

mschwett 

for the equivalent of 750 mid 70s dollars, today you could get a 19lb carbon bike with electronic shifting, 35mm tire clearance, hydraulic disk brakes, and a 4.9x spread between lowest and highest gear.

i’m curious what $750 would have gotten you in the mid 70s.

GhostRider62

Italian made Columbus SL frame, Campy NR equiped bike....maybe $800.