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Bent quick release skewer

Old 12-04-22, 05:06 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Polaris OBark
Welcome to my iggy list. You are wasting everyone's time.
yet you attacked my chosen typing style with sarcasm and then forgot to quote me in another reply, thereby insulting the OP...

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Old 12-04-22, 05:14 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa
Disagree.
That’s your purgative but you would be wrong.
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Old 12-04-22, 05:18 PM
  #28  
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After all that battling of the skewer material, let's maybe start a new debate...

Does it seem that the OP's bike is using 'U' dropouts (non 'thru-axle') & older style axles, with disk brakes? Do you think that this could be a contributing factor?
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Old 12-04-22, 05:33 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by maddog34
...and you are wrong about titanium's "bending" characteristics.. If it bends some,, it then wants to Reassume it's previous shape.. a well known factor.. See: "Metal Memory of titanium"...
You *may* be thinking of Nickel-Titanium ("NiTi"), which is a "shape-memory" alloy, meaning (basically) that when it is plastically deformed it will resume its original shape when it's heated. NiTi alloys are also "super-elastic", meaning they can be deformed *way* more than an amount that would result in permanent deformation in another material, yet will return to their original shape when the stress is removed. These properties are useful in some areas of dentistry and medicine. Any metal will reassume its previous shape as long as it hasn't been stressed beyond its elastic limit. To my best knowledge, the titanium alloys used in bicycle frames and components do not have super-elastic or shape-memory properties.

Originally Posted by Polaris OBark
Skip titanium. It stretches (and bends) more easily, and costs much more.
My Airborne came with titanium QR skewers that have worked well for more than 20 years. They have neither bent nor stretched. I am merely reporting.
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Old 12-04-22, 05:43 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
That’s your purgative...
Purgative: laxative
Prerogative: right or privilege
(/pedant mode)
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Old 12-04-22, 06:01 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
Yes. The axle of the hub is very important in keeping the two sides of the rear triangle stiff......
Yes, so far, but no to the rest.

First of all, we can't discount the strength and stiffness of chainstays, especially against the torsion that a broken axle might create.

Secondly, the amount of movement possible without snapping the skewer is very limited.

I've seen many cases of riders going miles with a broken axle, bridged by the skewer, and not knowing until they removed the wheel for other reasons.

Lastly, the argument may be irrelevant. The OP is ranting about a bent skewer, which he says he removed, which would have made a broken axle obvious.

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Old 12-04-22, 06:40 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
Yes, so far, but no to the rest.

First of all, we can't discount the strength and stiffness of chainstays, especially against the torsion that a broken axle might create.

Secondly, the amount of movement possible without snapping the skewer is very limited.

I've seen many cases of riders going miles with a broken axle, bridged by the skewer, and not knowing until they removed the wheel for other reasons.

Lastly, the argument may be irrelevant. The OP is ranting about a bent skewer, which he says he removed, which would have made a broken axle obvious.
utoner34 said this about the rear triangle

Originally Posted by utoner34
Yes, the rear triangle has play, its a steel gravel bike, so there is movement when I ride.
No rear triangle should have “play” nor should it move while riding. A broken axle would allow for that “play” and wouldn’t necessarily allow for the skewer to snap but it would allow for the skewer to bend. The movement wouldn’t be lateral which would cause the skewer to snap but vertical which is more likely to bend the skewer.

Again, a broken axle is not likely in this case due to the nature of the hub. But there is some kind of movement in the rear triangle that is more likely to bend the skewer than many other scenarios offered.
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Old 12-04-22, 06:51 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by sweeks
My Airborne came with titanium QR skewers that have worked well for more than 20 years. They have neither bent nor stretched. I am merely reporting.
My front wheel on my disc brake road bike would move around slightly during heavy braking. The skewers were both external cam and titanium (Salsa). I don't know for sure which was at fault, but replacing with internal cam steel skewers solved the problem. I had initially attributed this to the properties of the external cam, but someone pointed out to me it could be a bit of stretch in the titanium, and that steel was superior in this regard.

Also, some skewers come with aluminum non-lever-side nuts. Those threads sometimes aren't strong enough.

My main point was that if the wheel can move with respect to the dropouts, the skewer could potentially bend (even in the absence of more profound damage).
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Old 12-04-22, 06:55 PM
  #34  
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All the bickering! Yay!

Has anyone considered the possibility that the OP installed the skewer with the conical spring backwards? A bent skewer from this is plausible because the fat end of the spring prevents the axle from nesting in the dropout properly. The OP, not knowing any better then cinched down the cam lever bending the skewer because the acorn is only half supported.

Happens all the time among people who just don't know what "right" looks like.

Last edited by base2; 12-05-22 at 12:57 AM.
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Old 12-04-22, 07:35 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Polaris OBark
My front wheel on my disc brake road bike would move around slightly during heavy braking. The skewers were both external cam and titanium (Salsa). I don't know for sure which was at fault, but replacing with internal cam steel skewers solved the problem. I had initially attributed this to the properties of the external cam, but someone pointed out to me it could be a bit of stretch in the titanium, and that steel was superior in this regard.

Also, some skewers come with aluminum non-lever-side nuts. Those threads sometimes aren't strong enough.
My bike has rim brakes, so we may be comparing apples and oranges. When I bought the bike, the titanium skewers were optional and not terribly expensive, with external cams. Not really knowing much about the differences, I ordered the Ti bits. When I got the bike, the original Shimano skewers were included. I have switched them on and off the bike a few times for no particular reason, but don't notice any difference in their performance. Of course, with disc brakes there would be a different set of concerns.

I think the QR nuts I have are aluminum with steel inserts. I'd be nervous having those threads in plain aluminum!
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Old 12-04-22, 07:57 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by sweeks
Purgative: laxative.
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Old 12-04-22, 08:06 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
utoner34 said this about the rear triangle



The movement wouldn’t be lateral which would cause the skewer to snap but vertical which is more likely to bend the skewer.
.
Here we almost agree. The amount of movement possible would be limited by the skewer itself, and the torsional rigidity offered by the chainstay. In any case, I lack the imagination to accept that a rider could produce it off the bike, or see/feel it while riding.

For my part, I totally discounted the "dropout play" issue since there was no support or explanation. Moreover IMO, dropout flex on a hardtail is a non-starter, unless the frame is broken. (If it's a rear suspension, that is different animal, and it would be incumbent on the OP to say so.

By the same token, I'm not the one who brought up a bent axle as a possibility, and I only referenced that as a response to those who went down that rabbit hole.

For my part, lacking specific details or photos, as stated in my first post, my money is on it getting bent when off the bike.

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Old 12-04-22, 08:55 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by maddog34
and you are wrong about titanium's "bending" characteristics.. If it bends some,, it then wants to Reassume it's previous shape.. a well known factor.. See: "Metal Memory of titanium"... and it is far more resistant to bending than steel.
The issue with ti is not bending, it's stretching -- which is undesirable in a QR skewer.

Originally Posted by maddog34
old school steel ones may only be $2, not sure. I toss the rusty ones in the scrap.
So, you're basically saying the same thing as the poster with whom you are arguing -good skewers can be had for $2. Okay.

Originally Posted by maddog34
Funny, why isn't the option of CHROME MOLY skewers mentioned... hmmmmm....
Because that's pretty much what most skewers are made of.



You are really something. I think you're going to end up on a bunch of people's ignore lists.
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Old 12-04-22, 09:00 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Polaris OBark
My front wheel on my disc brake road bike would move around slightly during heavy braking. The skewers were both external cam and titanium (Salsa). I don't know for sure which was at fault, but replacing with internal cam steel skewers solved the problem. I had initially attributed this to the properties of the external cam, but someone pointed out to me it could be a bit of stretch in the titanium, and that steel was superior in this regard.
There is at least one bf poster who thinks that disc brake bikes with qr dropouts is a horrific fraud perpetrated on ignorant bike buyers...That the design is tremendously flawed and will never work. No amount of evidence or experience will disabuse him of this opinion, even umpteen posts from people who've had different experiences. As for me, my qr disc bike came with external cam steel skewers which worked just fine, though I did pretty promptly swap in some XT skewers -- just because I'm pretty persnickety about keeping the wheels attached to my bike. 13k miles later, no problems. No brake rubbing. Sure, thru-axles are better for disc bikes, but not essential.

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Old 12-04-22, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
.....As for me, my qr disc bike came with external cam steel skewers which worked just fine, though I did pretty promptly swap in some XT skewers -- just because I'm pretty persnickety about keeping the wheels attached to my bike. ......
Cams is cams. Internal, external doesn't matter. They' re simply ramps used to pull out one end of the skewer.

What does matter is the cam's rise, skewer strength. and the strength of the user. So stretch a skewer by X and the clamping force is Y.

That's true regardless of the skewer material, though one that's thinner or has a lower elastic modulus will need more rise to achieve the same tension. (something easily factored into the design).

What also matters to a degree is the material and dentation of the biting face.
However, we shouldn't be relying on the skewer to bite into the dropout for hold, that should come from the axle.

All we should expect from a QR is compressing the frame securely against the axle, where the hold happens. That's a fairly low ask and just about any skewer should deliver.
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Old 12-04-22, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
Cams is cams. Internal, external doesn't matter. They' re simply ramps used to pull out one end of the skewer.
Theoretically true, but cam sizes vary. In practice, the design of most external cam skewers (larger cams) results in less clamping force (for the same hand pressure when closing) and hence less secure retention. Sure, that can be overcome with more force, I suppose. But many users won't bother with that, or even know that they should do it.

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Old 12-04-22, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
Theoretically true, but cam sizes vary. In practice, the design of most external cam skewers (larger cams) results in less clamping with more force, I suppose.....
Taking the above at face value, the problem with generalizations like this moves the focus from a meaningful consideration (cam rise) to one that isn't (internal/external). That invites endless arguments based on anecdotal experience, about the wrong issue.

BTW - the water is even muddied because cams don't have a constant rise slope. Many have decent throw, but start steep and end shallow so high rise can be had with comparatively low hand force.

However, I agree with you that there are many examples of good execution of good design, and more than desirable of neither. My point is that the devil always hides in the details, which is why I prefer focusing on those.
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Old 12-04-22, 10:26 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
Theoretically true, but cam sizes vary. In practice, the design of most external cam skewers (larger cams) results in less clamping with more force, I suppose.....
Taking the above at face value, the problem with generalizations like this is that they move the focus from a meaningful consideration (cam rise) to one that isn't (internal/external). That invites endless arguments based on anecdotal experience, about the wrong issue. It also invites people to make decisions based on the wrong factors.

BTW - the water is even muddier because cams don't necessarilly have a constant rise slope. Many have decent throw, but start steep and end shallow so high rise is had with comparatively low hand force.

However, I agree with you that there are many examples of good execution of good design, and more than desirable of neither. My point is that the devil always hides in the details, which is why I prefer focusing on those.
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Old 12-04-22, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
Taking the above at face value, the problem with generalizations like this is that they move the focus from a meaningful consideration (cam rise) to one that isn't (internal/external). That invites endless arguments based on anecdotal experience, about the wrong issue. It also invites people to make decisions based on the wrong factors.

BTW - the water is even muddier because cams don't necessarilly have a constant rise slope. Many have decent throw, but start steep and end shallow so high rise is had with comparatively low hand force.

However, I agree with you that there are many examples of good execution of good design, and more than desirable of neither. My point is that the devil always hides in the details, which is why I prefer focusing on those.
I do agree on all counts. I think a common “execution“ issue is that external cam skewers are often designed to be as light as possible… Which leads to undesirable design consequences. So, while external cams can work just fine, I think the internal can varieties are a safer bet for most people.
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Old 12-05-22, 09:41 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by sweeks
My bike has rim brakes, so we may be comparing apples and oranges. When I bought the bike, the titanium skewers were optional and not terribly expensive, with external cams. Not really knowing much about the differences, I ordered the Ti bits. When I got the bike, the original Shimano skewers were included. I have switched them on and off the bike a few times for no particular reason, but don't notice any difference in their performance. Of course, with disc brakes there would be a different set of concerns.

I think the QR nuts I have are aluminum with steel inserts. I'd be nervous having those threads in plain aluminum!
Yeah, I think the problem emerges from disc brakes, because the force vector is pointed downward, and many forks have dropouts that open in the same direction. My Enve fork has dropouts that point forward at an angle, but the wheel was still moving around slightly, but enough to cause disc rub. When I switched to internal cam steel or the DT Swiss steel skewers, the problem went away. Mine was minor, but with a different fork, it might have been more problematic.

These figures are from the Cycling Tips website:





Link
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Old 12-05-22, 09:44 AM
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I weighed my titanium and steel skewers last night. 50g rear titanium, 103g rear steel (generic Shimano, I think my Dura Ace are heavier).
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Old 12-05-22, 10:30 AM
  #47  
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OP: in your original post to start this thread, you say the axle "looks OK".

Did you physically remove the axle from the hub to determine that? Did you "boresight" down the QR channel (possibly not definitive, but might show a problem)?

If all you did was look at the parts of the axle you could see while it was still installed in the hub, it's entirely possible the axle could be bent or broken in an internal location that is not visible from the outside.
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Old 12-05-22, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Polaris OBark
I weighed my titanium and steel skewers last night. 50g rear titanium, 103g rear steel (generic Shimano, I think my Dura Ace are heavier).
A 53g difference is less than 2oz. Your call regarding whether that's worth it or not.
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Old 12-05-22, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Hondo6
A 53g difference is less than 2oz. Your call regarding whether that's worth it or not.
Those Ti Salsa ones are the ones my bike came with and I took out. (See my previous posts for details.) I now have DT Swiss steel skewers in there (and Dura Ace on a different wheel set).

I weigh almost 200lbs kitted out. The bike is steel. I probably collect more than 100 g of dust per ride. There was no ambiguity making that call. Not having to re-position the front wheel after every ride is reason enough. Avoiding possible wheel ejection (again, see my previous posts) is also rather worthwhile.
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Old 12-05-22, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
Taking the above at face value, the problem with generalizations like this is that they move the focus from a meaningful consideration (cam rise) to one that isn't (internal/external). That invites endless arguments based on anecdotal experience, about the wrong issue. It also invites people to make decisions based on the wrong factors.

BTW - the water is even muddier because cams don't necessarilly have a constant rise slope. Many have decent throw, but start steep and end shallow so high rise is had with comparatively low hand force.

However, I agree with you that there are many examples of good execution of good design, and more than desirable of neither. My point is that the devil always hides in the details, which is why I prefer focusing on those.
I had no idea.

I had just assumed all external-cam skewers were inferior. I would have thought my Salsa ones were ok, until I tried a good internal cam skewer.

Can you give us an example of one that is as good as (say) an XT, Ultegra or Dura Ace internal-cam skewer?
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