I'm thinking of going through the custom steel process
#26
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I would LOVE to be able to give a builder my measurements, whether I am leaning road or mountain, and let him run free and come up with something like that one day.
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Integrated Seat Post. Tall column extension of the seat tube. You cut it to proper length (carefully) and mount a small clamp device on top of it to hold the saddle instead of using a sliding seat post.
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I wonder what type of steel tube they'd use for that application?
#30
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I don't know Elephant, but looking at their site-- sweetest bike gallery ever, btw-- he really looks like an artisan builder more comfy with established techniques rather than a technical design innovator, but I don't know. I'd be curious to see how that concept plays out. I've seen English do it with a carbon ISM seat tube within an otherwise steel frame, which was sweet.
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I have custom steel lust myself after going to Circle A Cycles open house in Sept. Little shop in Providence RI that does gorgeous work. I just need to scrape together the $$$ to do it.
#32
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Seems all the Elephant riders here in Spokane are happy with there bikes. I almost went with one but settled for a Co-motion Espresso instead. Really for custom geometry Glen does offer a great deal. Just don't forget to post pics!
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Yeah, well, that's what I mean. I don't know of any standard tube set that includes a steel ISM, so I'd think that'd get pretty expensive to have one extruded for a custom build. I'd be curious to know if the builder does that, plans to weld an extension, or replaces the tube set seat tube with another, suitably long tube of different spec.
I don't know Elephant, but looking at their site-- sweetest bike gallery ever, btw-- he really looks like an artisan builder more comfy with established techniques rather than a technical design innovator, but I don't know. I'd be curious to see how that concept plays out. I've seen English do it with a carbon ISM seat tube within an otherwise steel frame, which was sweet.
I don't know Elephant, but looking at their site-- sweetest bike gallery ever, btw-- he really looks like an artisan builder more comfy with established techniques rather than a technical design innovator, but I don't know. I'd be curious to see how that concept plays out. I've seen English do it with a carbon ISM seat tube within an otherwise steel frame, which was sweet.
#34
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If I were working with Glen, I'd ask if he would consider Reynolds 921 stainless; Reynolds is taking orders for early 2014 delivery. Since he already offers 853 as an option he might be interested in 921. Pricing for the 921 tubeset is roughly 2/3 the price of KVA MS2, the current stainless low price leader.
Reynolds 921 Stainless Steel Tubeset Revealed
Reynolds 921 Stainless Steel Tubeset Revealed
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FWIW, I have been told by multiple builders that stainless is very hard (physically) and does not have the same feel as high-end non-stainless steel from Dedacciai, Reynolds, or Columbus. If you're worried about rust, buy a can of T9.
A modern steel bike with T9 will outlive you.
Before going stainless, talk to the builder about what you want and why. Mine talked me out of it, and I don't regret it.
A modern steel bike with T9 will outlive you.
Before going stainless, talk to the builder about what you want and why. Mine talked me out of it, and I don't regret it.
#36
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Actually, s/s wasn't on my radar
Last edited by pdedes; 11-25-13 at 04:39 AM.
#37
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FWIW, I have been told by multiple builders that stainless is very hard (physically) and does not have the same feel as high-end non-stainless steel from Dedacciai, Reynolds, or Columbus. If you're worried about rust, buy a can of T9.
A modern steel bike with T9 will outlive you.
Before going stainless, talk to the builder about what you want and why. Mine talked me out of it, and I don't regret it.
A modern steel bike with T9 will outlive you.
Before going stainless, talk to the builder about what you want and why. Mine talked me out of it, and I don't regret it.
All steels, including stainless, have the same Young's Modulus (200 GPa), virtually the same elongation (~12%), and virtually the same density (~8,000 kg/cu/meter).
Please don't dismiss stainless because of anecdotal mythology. I've ridden this Reynolds 953 stainless bike for thousands of miles over the last six years, and it's my "go to" bike for 90% of my riding.
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Yeah, stainless is dope; is Rhygin still around?
Relatedly, here's a Ted James 953 stainless 29er cruiser style with ISM:
Relatedly, here's a Ted James 953 stainless 29er cruiser style with ISM:
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By all means, please talk to Glen. Talk to other framebuilders like Dave Wages, Dave Anderson, Carl Strong, Sam Whittington, and many others who use stainless. Talk to customers who have ridden steel bikes all their lives, had stainless frames built, and love the ride.
All steels, including stainless, have the same Young's Modulus (200 GPa), virtually the same elongation (~12%), and virtually the same density (~8,000 kg/cu/meter).
Please don't dismiss stainless because of anecdotal mythology. I've ridden this Reynolds 953 stainless bike for thousands of miles over the last six years, and it's my "go to" bike for 90% of my riding.
All steels, including stainless, have the same Young's Modulus (200 GPa), virtually the same elongation (~12%), and virtually the same density (~8,000 kg/cu/meter).
Please don't dismiss stainless because of anecdotal mythology. I've ridden this Reynolds 953 stainless bike for thousands of miles over the last six years, and it's my "go to" bike for 90% of my riding.
FWIW, I was told by several that Stainless is harder to work, harder to tune for ride characteristics, and offers no intrinsic advantages unless you want to leave it unpainted or outside. Since I wanted mine painted and din't plan on leaving it outside, I followed my builder's advice. I don't believe that the considered opinions of people who build bikes for a living are anecdotal mythology.
Is that frame unpainted? If so, I get the stainless thing. I have stainless on mine, and those sections are unpainted, too.
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So, to paraphrase: talk and listen to your builder. Unless he or she contradicts your views, in which case don't listen to them. Okay.
FWIW, I was told by several that Stainless is harder to work, harder to tune for ride characteristics, and offers no intrinsic advantages unless you want to leave it unpainted or outside. Since I wanted mine painted and din't plan on leaving it outside, I followed my builder's advice. I don't believe that the considered opinions of people who build bikes for a living are anecdotal mythology.
Is that frame unpainted? If so, I get the stainless thing. I have stainless on mine, and those sections are unpainted, too.
FWIW, I was told by several that Stainless is harder to work, harder to tune for ride characteristics, and offers no intrinsic advantages unless you want to leave it unpainted or outside. Since I wanted mine painted and din't plan on leaving it outside, I followed my builder's advice. I don't believe that the considered opinions of people who build bikes for a living are anecdotal mythology.
Is that frame unpainted? If so, I get the stainless thing. I have stainless on mine, and those sections are unpainted, too.
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Let the builder get "in your head" and then give them the freedom to figure out the best implementation. Design is a game of trade-offs and if you constrain too many variables, the builder won't be able to get to the optimal solution. If you don't trust the builder to come up with an optimal solution, then you should probably choose a different builder. The great frame builders are infinitely more than just "guys who are good with a torch".
#43
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So, to paraphrase: talk and listen to your builder. Unless he or she contradicts your views, in which case don't listen to them. Okay.
FWIW, I was told by several that Stainless is harder to work, harder to tune for ride characteristics, and offers no intrinsic advantages unless you want to leave it unpainted or outside. Since I wanted mine painted and din't plan on leaving it outside, I followed my builder's advice. I don't believe that the considered opinions of people who build bikes for a living are anecdotal mythology.
FWIW, I was told by several that Stainless is harder to work, harder to tune for ride characteristics, and offers no intrinsic advantages unless you want to leave it unpainted or outside. Since I wanted mine painted and din't plan on leaving it outside, I followed my builder's advice. I don't believe that the considered opinions of people who build bikes for a living are anecdotal mythology.
Yes; it is unpainted and has six years and thousands of miles of riding on it; it still looks brand new. The frame is polished, though, which gives the bare steel the appearance of having been chrome plated.
Last edited by Scooper; 11-25-13 at 10:02 AM.
#44
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From the builders I know and work with, this is a frustrating exercise that often results in disappointment. What I am saying is that any good build will start with a clear understanding of a rider's wants and needs - let the builder do the rest. It is not the whim of the builder, rather the builder trying to do what he thinks is best for the rider given his building style and available materials. Attempting to micromanage this process will add delays and frustration on both parts. For each builder, certain welding styles and materials will be used to achieve a desired product. This will vary from each builder according to his own methods, materials, and experience. Thus your choice of builder needs to take these factors into account. It is the buyer's job to best determine who best fits his ideal build, not the other way around.
Asking random builders to use the newest ultralight unobtainium tubes or unfamiliar processes often results in a sub optimal frame. Moreover, Glen Copus has forgotten more about bikes than anyone in this thread will ever know. Part of getting a custom frame from him will be utilizing his VAST experience building bikes based on your needs. If you want some random internet person's opinion to overrule his, you should really look elsewhere for a frame. Try asking Richard Sachs for a fillet brazed frame with the material de jour and see what happens.
Asking random builders to use the newest ultralight unobtainium tubes or unfamiliar processes often results in a sub optimal frame. Moreover, Glen Copus has forgotten more about bikes than anyone in this thread will ever know. Part of getting a custom frame from him will be utilizing his VAST experience building bikes based on your needs. If you want some random internet person's opinion to overrule his, you should really look elsewhere for a frame. Try asking Richard Sachs for a fillet brazed frame with the material de jour and see what happens.
#45
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From the builders I know and work with, this is a frustrating exercise that often results in disappointment. What I am saying is that any good build will start with a clear understanding of a rider's wants and needs - let the builder do the rest. It is not the whim of the builder, rather the builder trying to do what he thinks is best for the rider given his building style and available materials. Attempting to micromanage this process will add delays and frustration on both parts. For each builder, certain welding styles and materials will be used to achieve a desired product. This will vary from each builder according to his own methods, materials, and experience. Thus your choice of builder needs to take these factors into account. It is the buyer's job to best determine who best fits his ideal build, not the other way around.
Asking random builders to use the newest ultralight unobtainium tubes or unfamiliar processes often results in a sub optimal frame. Moreover, Glen Copus has forgotten more about bikes than anyone in this thread will ever know. Part of getting a custom frame from him will be utilizing his VAST experience building bikes based on your needs. If you want some random internet person's opinion to overrule his, you should really look elsewhere for a frame. Try asking Richard Sachs for a fillet brazed frame with the material de jour and see what happens.
Asking random builders to use the newest ultralight unobtainium tubes or unfamiliar processes often results in a sub optimal frame. Moreover, Glen Copus has forgotten more about bikes than anyone in this thread will ever know. Part of getting a custom frame from him will be utilizing his VAST experience building bikes based on your needs. If you want some random internet person's opinion to overrule his, you should really look elsewhere for a frame. Try asking Richard Sachs for a fillet brazed frame with the material de jour and see what happens.
He can always say no, that he prefers to use the materials and methods he feels comfortable with.
#46
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It is the underlined part of your comment I objected to. There simply is no evidence that stainless won't have exactly the same "feel" as high-end non-stainless steel given the same tube diameters, wall thicknesses and butting. Steel is steel.
It's not about mine or anyone elses "views"... Some stainless tubing like 953 is hard on tooling, and all of the current stainless steels used for bicycle tubing require lots of practice with a brazing torch to get exactly the right temperature to avoid overheating the tubes. For these reasons many builders simply don't like to work with it and will steer customers toward non-stainless steels. That's fine, but to say the "feel" is different simply isn't true.
It's not about mine or anyone elses "views"... Some stainless tubing like 953 is hard on tooling, and all of the current stainless steels used for bicycle tubing require lots of practice with a brazing torch to get exactly the right temperature to avoid overheating the tubes. For these reasons many builders simply don't like to work with it and will steer customers toward non-stainless steels. That's fine, but to say the "feel" is different simply isn't true.
This is what EVERY builder told me that worked with SS at the Denver hand made show.
I claim Dave Wages as a friend, and he sure does make a few SS bikes, including the one Scooper has shown.
He told me that it was a steel bike and would feel the same. He could build it just like my other steel Ellis, and the only difference was it would not rust as quickly and would polish up to a very nice shine. But as far as ride goes, exactly the same. He had no reason to say this to me. Dave does both steel and SS. In fact, it would have been more $$$ for him if I would have ordered a SS rather than a steel one.
I would trust the builder I picked out to decide what tubes and how to join them.
It's a fun process. Please enjoy it as much as you enjoy your bike when you get it.
#47
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Well, submitting my measurements this afternoon. I'll keep posting to the thread as the process unfolds. I would consider myself a pretty low-demand customer, no princess-and-the-pea syndrome from me. The only must haves so far are bb30 and ISP. I like the idea of oversized tubes as well, when I have that conversation with Glen, I'll let everyone who has participated here know. Thanks all for your comments/questions.
#49
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FWIW, John Speare at Elephant says Glen has built (and will build) KVA MS2 stainless frames. For stainless, add $600 to the price of any frame.
Admittedly, that's a substantial premium. It's worth it to some, not to others.
Admittedly, that's a substantial premium. It's worth it to some, not to others.
#50
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From the builders I know and work with, this is a frustrating exercise that often results in disappointment. What I am saying is that any good build will start with a clear understanding of a rider's wants and needs - let the builder do the rest. It is not the whim of the builder, rather the builder trying to do what he thinks is best for the rider given his building style and available materials. Attempting to micromanage this process will add delays and frustration on both parts. For each builder, certain welding styles and materials will be used to achieve a desired product. This will vary from each builder according to his own methods, materials, and experience. Thus your choice of builder needs to take these factors into account. It is the buyer's job to best determine who best fits his ideal build, not the other way around.
Asking random builders to use the newest ultralight unobtainium tubes or unfamiliar processes often results in a sub optimal frame. Moreover, Glen Copus has forgotten more about bikes than anyone in this thread will ever know. Part of getting a custom frame from him will be utilizing his VAST experience building bikes based on your needs. If you want some random internet person's opinion to overrule his, you should really look elsewhere for a frame. Try asking Richard Sachs for a fillet brazed frame with the material de jour and see what happens.
Asking random builders to use the newest ultralight unobtainium tubes or unfamiliar processes often results in a sub optimal frame. Moreover, Glen Copus has forgotten more about bikes than anyone in this thread will ever know. Part of getting a custom frame from him will be utilizing his VAST experience building bikes based on your needs. If you want some random internet person's opinion to overrule his, you should really look elsewhere for a frame. Try asking Richard Sachs for a fillet brazed frame with the material de jour and see what happens.
It's funny. Some people like the self-service meat case, some people like dealing with the butcher in a specialty shop. But just because you want to talk to the butcher, doesn't mean you should get sold the cut he thinks is best, or the one he overbought on and needs to move out before it goes bad. It is your money, your choice.