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Watch out for street grates;

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Watch out for street grates;

Old 01-08-22, 08:44 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by sdmc530
...left paralyzed by the crash that happened after her front tire slipped through a street drain.
Wonder how this would have turned out if she had been paralyzed before the crash and then filled suit.

Texas is still facing suits from motorcycle riders hitting unmarked grooves in the highway and taking a spill.
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Old 01-09-22, 10:55 AM
  #27  
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Many years ago, our late city Councillor ( and MP) had identified sewer grates to be a problem for cyclists. So he had them replaced with gates at 45deg angles.
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Old 01-09-22, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Daniel4
Many years ago, our late city Councillor ( and MP) had identified sewer grates to be a problem for cyclists. So he had them replaced with gates at 45deg angles.
Say what
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Old 01-10-22, 08:43 AM
  #29  
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Anyone actually read the decision? There is a link to the decision in the article liked by the OP.

It was never disputed that parallel grates are inherently dangerous to cyclists. However, under SD law, the entity responsible for the street cannot be held liable for design defects. The only possibility for liability in this case would have been if the grate where the woman crashed was damaged. There was no such evidence presented. The plaintiff's argument was that crossbars must have been welded onto the grate and later removed (constituting "damage") because that had happened with a bunch of other grate on the street and thus it must have happened to the grate at issue. In the face of photographs showing the grate at issue had no signs of ever having had crossbars welded to it and then removed, the inference that because the city had welded crossbars to some grates it must have welded them to the grate at issue (and that they must have late been removed) was insufficient to establish a question of fact as to whether the grate had been damaged as SD law requires.

"Godbes' claim that Grate 4 was damaged rests entirely on multiple inferences drawn from evidence showing that City knew the design of the parallel grates was unsafe, that straps were welded onto some of the parallel grates on the Street, and that some straps were torn off these grates. From this evidence, Godbes rely on inferences that all of the parallel grates on the Street, including Grate 4, must have been welded with straps and that the straps were torn off without leaving welding indents." (Emphasis in original.)

As for the grate at issue, the plaintiffs' counsel had the opportunity to (and did) photograph every grate on the road shortly after the accident. He then urged the city to replace the parallel grates but did not ask it to preserve the grate at issue. The city responded by replacing all the grates on the road.

Last edited by indyfabz; 01-10-22 at 08:50 AM.
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Old 01-10-22, 11:34 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
Anyone actually read the decision? There is a link to the decision in the article liked by the OP.

Post 7, I summarized the issue a little differently.

I think the Court's interpretation is reasonable, but the law distinguishing defective from damaged is not a reasonable line. If I had to guess if there was an actual legislative strategy involved here, it probably came down to the state not wanting govt. to be liable if they didn't reroute a road that necessitated a blind turn or the like. "Defective" may just be too broad a term in this context, and they didn't want to be on the hook any time someone can make a plausible argument that the design of the road caused an accident..
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Old 01-10-22, 12:23 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
I think the Court's interpretation is reasonable, but the law distinguishing defective from damaged is not a reasonable line. If I had to guess if there was an actual legislative strategy involved here, it probably came down to the state not wanting govt. to be liable if they didn't reroute a road that necessitated a blind turn or the like.
Sounds likely.

The decision cites the SD case that pronounced that there is no common law right of action against the city with regard to streets and highways. I have not read it, but it's quoted in part: "[Cities'] common-law duties respecting streets were abrogated by...legislative enactments. The duties are now limited by statute." That's why the plaintiff had to hang her hat on the reported damage statute.
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Old 01-10-22, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
Sounds likely.

The decision cites the SD case that pronounced that there is no common law right of action against the city with regard to streets and highways. I have not read it, but it's quoted in part: "[Cities'] common-law duties respecting streets were abrogated by...legislative enactments. The duties are now limited by statute." That's why the plaintiff had to hang her hat on the reported damage statute.
I peaked at it--the statutes in question were enacted in 1915 and 1939, and the 1939 statute was definitely designed to limit liability to a duty to repair and erect guards around dangerous damage--washouts, big holes or the like.
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Old 01-15-22, 11:22 AM
  #33  
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It would seem that there is plenty of grounds for an appeal to a higher court. At this late date EVERYONE should know that parallel grates are a safety hazard and should have been replaced years ago. Then the fact that the grate in question disappeared is hugely troubling. Further saying a cyclist is responsible to noticing a grate doesnt hold water either. What if a passing car FORCES a cyclist on to one of these hazards?
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Old 01-15-22, 09:55 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by rydabent
It would seem that there is plenty of grounds for an appeal to a higher court. At this late date EVERYONE should know that parallel grates are a safety hazard and should have been replaced years ago. Then the fact that the grate in question disappeared is hugely troubling. Further saying a cyclist is responsible to noticing a grate doesnt hold water either. What if a passing car FORCES a cyclist on to one of these hazards?

It's a state case and the decision is by the SD Supreme Court. There's no higher court. And it's not a federal law issue, so they can't take it to the US Supreme Court.
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Old 01-16-22, 09:30 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Daniel4
Many years ago, our late city Councillor ( and MP) had identified sewer grates to be a problem for cyclists. So he had them replaced with gates at 45deg angles.
https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/up...ns-Jan2021.pdf
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Old 01-18-22, 06:35 AM
  #36  
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Sorry, but this is more than a bit Captain Obvious-esque. I think I learned this lesson when I was 6. Watch out for cars. Watch out for ice in the winter. Watch out for potholes. I mean, do we really need this warning? And if someone does, will it benefit someone so clueless?
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Old 01-18-22, 08:23 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by noimagination
Sorry, but this is more than a bit Captain Obvious-esque. I think I learned this lesson when I was 6. Watch out for cars. Watch out for ice in the winter. Watch out for potholes. I mean, do we really need this warning? And if someone does, will it benefit someone so clueless?

Sorry, but if you've ever encountered one of these where the color of the metal matches the color of the pavement, they are not at all obvious. As I said above, many decades ago, I caught my wheel on one of these where the city had actually installed the grate the wrong way (it was square, and the other ones on the block were installed perpendicular to the street--i.e., correctly). Fortunately, I was not hurt and my bike was undamaged, but I don't think it's fair to call me clueless when the grate, the street and the spaces between the slats all appear black--it's really hard to see let alone measure. Also, keep in mind that these are most likely to be encountered in cities/suburbs where the traffic ahead of you is actually passing over the street feature when you'd be in a position to spot it.

I try to avoid riding over grates and manhole covers generally, but it's not always possible to avoid, especially in traffic.
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Old 01-18-22, 03:06 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Sorry, but if you've ever encountered one of these where the color of the metal matches the color of the pavement, they are not at all obvious. As I said above, many decades ago, I caught my wheel on one of these where the city had actually installed the grate the wrong way (it was square, and the other ones on the block were installed perpendicular to the street--i.e., correctly). Fortunately, I was not hurt and my bike was undamaged, but I don't think it's fair to call me clueless when the grate, the street and the spaces between the slats all appear black--it's really hard to see let alone measure. Also, keep in mind that these are most likely to be encountered in cities/suburbs where the traffic ahead of you is actually passing over the street feature when you'd be in a position to spot it.

I try to avoid riding over grates and manhole covers generally, but it's not always possible to avoid, especially in traffic.
But .... you DID watch out, and still rode over the grate, not because you weren't aware of the hazard but because you couldn't see it. In which case, the warning in the post title, again, is not useful. Or, in the other cases you list, you had no choice. Warning still not useful.

What am I missing?
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Old 01-18-22, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by noimagination
But .... you DID watch out, and still rode over the grate, not because you weren't aware of the hazard but because you couldn't see it. In which case, the warning in the post title, again, is not useful. Or, in the other cases you list, you had no choice. Warning still not useful.

What am I missing?

Your car keys? Your wallet?

There's a small chance that somebody wasn't aware these too wide grate gaps were a thing to watch out for--I haven't seen one of these in decades, actually. I don't know why you think your comment that the warning is not useful is useful, for that matter. In any event, what's the harm in posting it? And I thought the municipal liability or lack thereof aspect of it was interesting.
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Old 01-18-22, 04:29 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
It's a state case and the decision is by the SD Supreme Court. There's no higher court. And it's not a federal law issue, so they can't take it to the US Supreme Court.
But what if is is a Federal hiway thru town.
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Old 01-18-22, 04:30 PM
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The rider or his family could always sue the city in civil court.
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Old 01-19-22, 05:19 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by rydabent
But what if is is a Federal hiway thru town.

Even if it was, liability would be a state law question.
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Old 01-19-22, 05:26 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by rydabent
The rider or his family could always sue the city in civil court.
That's what this case is. They sued the city in civil court and they lost. The law in South Dakota sucks.
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Old 01-19-22, 06:37 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Your car keys? Your wallet?

There's a small chance that somebody wasn't aware these too wide grate gaps were a thing to watch out for--I haven't seen one of these in decades, actually. I don't know why you think your comment that the warning is not useful is useful, for that matter. In any event, what's the harm in posting it? And I thought the municipal liability or lack thereof aspect of it was interesting.
(shrug) I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see the point in creating a post that warns of a hazard that anyone who has ridden a bike more than a couple of blocks already knows. Hell, I avoid sewer grates when I'm driving a car, if possible, much less when riding a bike. There's no harm in the post, I just see it as useless other than its entertainment value. I rolled my eyes at the thread title several times before posting (for fun, not profit), and I agree my post is of limited utility, it was a comment and did not contribute to the thread. But, since IMO the post is fluff anyway ...

From the volume of responses, there are those who don't agree. I'm OK with that.
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Old 01-19-22, 06:49 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by noimagination
(shrug) I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see the point in creating a post that warns of a hazard that anyone who has ridden a bike more than a couple of blocks already knows. Hell, I avoid sewer grates when I'm driving a car, if possible, much less when riding a bike. There's no harm in the post, I just see it as useless other than its entertainment value. I rolled my eyes at the thread title several times before posting (for fun, not profit), and I agree my post is of limited utility, it was a comment and did not contribute to the thread. But, since IMO the post is fluff anyway ...

From the volume of responses, there are those who don't agree. I'm OK with that.

You think the municipal liability stuff was obvious? Cool story, bro!

When you start throwing around words like "clueless" and make assertions about how stupid obvious these defective grates are, you're being insulting. Hell, you're continuing that in this supposedly conciliatory post.
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Old 01-20-22, 01:15 PM
  #46  
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I always observe the road conditions. One has to watch out for pine cones, sweet gum balls, sticks, glass, potholes, storm grates, manhole lids, puddles, ice, piles of leaves and debris. etc. It is dangerous out there.
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Old 01-20-22, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by 1979schwinn
I always observe the road conditions. One has to watch out for pine cones, sweet gum balls, sticks, glass, potholes, storm grates, manhole lids, puddles, ice, piles of leaves and debris. etc. It is dangerous out there.
There's no question that my mind is much more active scanning for road hazards while bicycling than while driving. It is, however, impossible to see everything and, from personal experience, I can tell you the grate hazard can be very hard to spot. In this instance, it's arguable that the city set up the worst possible situation--fixing some of them but not others in close proximity. That might actually camouflage the dangerousness of the unfixed ones.
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Old 01-22-22, 10:09 AM
  #48  
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I'm not going to argue the details of a particular incident in a place I've never been, giving rise to lawsuits under laws I know nothing about.

I will say this -- especially watch out for street grates if you ride a folding bike. Those little wheels get stuck in places that a full-sized wheel would roll right over.

Don't ask me how I know. . .
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Old 02-10-22, 11:45 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Wow, incisive counter-argument. Next time, maybe think before you post. It's very obvious that the city has been welding strips on these things precisely because the hazard is very hard to spot while riding--you really can't take your eyes off the actual roadbed to make sure you don't flop into it. These kind of grates parallel to the road direction were common when I was a kid. I haven't seen one in many decades. Why could that be, I wonder?.
That would be because highway codes changed. In large part because of extensive lobbying by the old League of American Wheelmen. So far as I know all that happens if a local jurisdiction fails to comply is they can lose federal and/or state funding. Because everyone uses state and federal funding most eventually comply. Is compliance perfect? No. If you have a good lawyer non-compliance will help make your case. I said help, it does not make a case all by itself.

I’ll cite an old case I know. A good friend fell through a bridge grate. Not his wheel, all of him. City of Chicago had removed a section of steel bridge grate for repairs. Left a couple of simple barricades in position and traffic knocked them into the river. So it is winter near dawn and my friend didn’t spot the hole. Fell forty feet and landed on his face on a bridge piling. Police boat picked him up, he was lucky the nearest hospital did have a very good plastic surgeon present who rebuilt his face from his driver’s license. Of course his face was never the same.

Thirty years later the City finally agreed to cover his medical costs and the cost of the bicycle. Took lots of good lawyering to get that much.

Looking at the cats needing herding on this thread it is truly amazing the League ever advanced from square one.

Watch where you are going.
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Old 02-10-22, 12:43 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by 63rickert
That would be because highway codes changed. In large part because of extensive lobbying by the old League of American Wheelmen. So far as I know all that happens if a local jurisdiction fails to comply is they can lose federal and/or state funding. Because everyone uses state and federal funding most eventually comply. Is compliance perfect? No. If you have a good lawyer non-compliance will help make your case. I said help, it does not make a case all by itself.

I’ll cite an old case I know. A good friend fell through a bridge grate. Not his wheel, all of him. City of Chicago had removed a section of steel bridge grate for repairs. Left a couple of simple barricades in position and traffic knocked them into the river. So it is winter near dawn and my friend didn’t spot the hole. Fell forty feet and landed on his face on a bridge piling. Police boat picked him up, he was lucky the nearest hospital did have a very good plastic surgeon present who rebuilt his face from his driver’s license. Of course his face was never the same.

Thirty years later the City finally agreed to cover his medical costs and the cost of the bicycle. Took lots of good lawyering to get that much.

Looking at the cats needing herding on this thread it is truly amazing the League ever advanced from square one.

Watch where you are going.
I'm a little surprised to see this "argument" quote dredged up, and I don't disagree with anything you just posted. Actually, I appreciate the history lesson.

I'm sure if the history of that change in the highway code was researched, you'd almost certainly find that it stemmed from people learning about this not-at-all-easy to see hazard the hard way.

Watch where you are going is always good advice, "Here are obscure hazards to look for" is also good advice.
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