Dfrost 

That’s certainly looking better! How does the reach feel with the much shorter stem and different bar/brake orientation? Nice job on the bar taping.

I’m a confirmed index shifter! That’s also due to being a confirmed brifter user (Sachs Ergo 8-speed) for the last 28 years, even more so as I’ve aged and gotten stiffer. DT shifters are a long ways down on my 63cm frames, I’m over 70 and much of the riding is very hilly so frequent shifts over a wide gear range.

If it was me, I wouldn’t focus on just Dura-Ace components. Yes, they are lovely, but they are much rarer and significantly more expensive for no discernible benefit at any sort of recreational level over Ultegra/600, 105 or even lower. With the bar end shifters, brand of FD doesn’t even matter! I slightly prefer the shifting quality of my Campy Racing T FD’s with triple cranks (not something you're likely to need in FL). Suntour as well as those Shimano previously mentioned are all excellent. Just be sure that you get one with a 28.6mm clamp to fit your seat tube (ST).

In the long run, it seems like you’d really benefit by a 130mm rear Shimano (or compatible freehub) cassette hub with 700C rims. The downstream versatility with a huge range of tire options, and 7 (with a spacer behind the cassette), 8, 9 or 10-speed is significant, whether it’s continuing with this Dawes (see @Chuckk’s comments above), or eventually upgrading to a different frame as you first mentioned in the previous thread. That bike swap will probably have plenty of them as well as tires and cassettes. Your brake calipers appear to have enough slot length to accommodate the 4mm smaller rims. Shimano hubs don’t have “sealed” bearings, but the labyrinth seals on any of them are excellent. I’ve serviced literally hundreds of them in my volunteer work, with very rare failures.

You might also want to get an indexing Shimano rear derailleur (it will have a threaded barrel adjuster where the cable housing terminates) that will be usable now and in the future with those bar end shifters. Same comments as above apply about the various Shimano levels. Don’t worry about “number of speeds”. Just about any decent Shimano RD will work fine, except that DA 7400-series I mentioned in a previous post.

If you get a different crankset, be sure to get the corresponding length sealed BB.

ericlowney 

Dfrost The reach is much better, thanks. I obviously haven't been able to ride it yet, but I think it's going to work. Plus the rack will be here tomorrow and then I can finally use the panniers and get that weight off of my back. I was only saying dura-ace because the shifters specifically label on them which derailleurs they are compatible with - RD-7700 (9s) and RD-7400 (8s). If I don't get one of those, what would be a 'good' Shimano RD to look for at the swap meet? The FD doesn't matter nearly as much, just Shimano and SHINY, haha. I do think the rear brakes will be close with 700c, but I heard from some other Dawes owners you can file the slots to get them to work. So I think my list for the swap meet is as follows:
1.) silver seat clamp (I hate that black one)
2.) Front derailleur (shimano brand, dura-ace, crane, 600, etc. just shiny/clean)
3.) maybe fenders
4.) 700c wheelset with freehub
5.) cassette - 8 or 9?
6.) derailleur that can work with index shifting to the cassette I end up with
7.) (hopefully not) a bottom bracket and crankset

Any more intel you can give me on the cassette/freehub/derailleur stuff? I just want to make sure whatever I get will work together. I may honestly keep friction shifting, but I would like the ability to switch to index later if I want to. Thanks again for all the help!

Dfrost 

Go as early as possible. Bring a small metric tape measure and/or ruler. A dial caliper that reads metric would be helpful, too. Lots of cash.

What are your priorities for this swap? Are you going with a bike-knowledgeable friend?

1. Get a different seat post, not just the clamp. Be sure you get one the correct diameter for your frame (check the markings on what you have or measure it with an accurate metric caliper), and long enough to keep at least 2-3” in the frame. Since you’re using a very nice Brooks saddle, you’ll probably appreciate a two-bolt type that lets you fine tune the tilt angle, but those are less common. You will want one with more setback for that Brooks. Definitely avoid any that use notches for angle adjustment. The notches always seem to be wrong.

2. Again, doesn’t have to be Shimano. Suntour made excellent FD. Be sure it is a 28.6mm clamp to fit your seat tube.

3. Plastic is easier to fit, but metal tend to work a better and last longer if well-mounted. Check the interior width between fork legs for the maximum, but should ideally be about 10mm wider than your tires. Used fenders will probably turn into a mounting nightmare, and fender mounting is never a quick process. Plan to add a rubber flap to extend the front to within 2” of the ground, and a rear flap also for the benefit of those behind you (your daughter?). I’ve never thought that the snap-on types give enough protection. @Chuckk’s fenders in his post above are beautifully fitted, so he’d be an excellent source of info and advice.

4. See my extensive comments earlier. 130mm rear. Anything with Shimano or compatible HG freehub (one groove is wider than the rest). 8/9/10-speed freehubs are 35mm long measured from the cassette seating face. Spin the wheel to be sure the bearings feel decent and watch for a round, true rim. Make sure the brake surface is flat (not worn concave). Spokes should be shiny or minimal discoloration and spoke nipples not rounded - indicates a rim that can no longer be trued! Avoid a rear wheel where the chain has been over-shifted into the spokes behind the cassette. 32 spokes are most common and will work fine; avoid wheels with less than 28. If you eventually want fatter tires, look for external rim widths of 22-23mm - it will make your subsequent brake adjustments and QR easier. But you’ll probably see lots of 19-20mm rims like the fine Mavic rims, such as MA-2, MA-40, Reflex and Open Pro. Don’t avoid them, just recognize that (relatively subtle) aspect.

Light weight wheels, especially rim weight, are one place that makes a noticeable difference for most of us. You can get a good idea of relative rim weight by judging the effort to spin a wheel. If I was choosing between a heavy, wider rim or really good but skinnier Mavic (or comparable) rim wheel, I’d definitely choose the latter.

5. 9-speed, since that’s what your shifters are! Watch out for teeth that are worn with small peened (bent over) areas on tooth wear faces. But HG cassettes have intentionally smaller teeth in spots - that’s not tooth wear. Given your terrain, you don’t need low gears, i.e., big cogs, unless you realistically see yourself touring in challenging terrain. So 12-24 or 12-27 will work fine.

6. Just about any indexing Shimano RD with a barrel adjuster. Cage length (distance between pulleys) doesn’t matter with smaller cassettes like those just suggested and a double crank set. Ultegra, 105 and Deore work great and the lower levels do just fine, too. Be sure the various pivots don’t have angular play, but the upper pulleys on Shimano RD’s are intended to have a bit of lateral float.

7. If you decide to go for a crankset, get a sealed bearing BB in the length recommended for that crank. Here’s the Sheldon Brown database with an extensive table (https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbsize.html). Make sure its a 68mm X xx. 68mm is the width of your BB shell, 73 mm is used on most older MTB’s, 70mm on older French, Italian and Swiss bikes. A 68 x whatever should have left-hand threads on the drive side (DS), which you already know about from your BB disassembly.

Good luck and happy hunting!

ericlowney 

Dfrost
I'm going alone to the swap - I only know one person who is really bike knowledgeable so I may text him and see if he knows about it/plans to go though now that you mention it. I'm a little concerned I don't have the knowledge to try to do the drivetrain right now, but hoping if I brought the bike with me the people at the swap wouldn't try to take advantage if I explain what it is I need/want. Priorities are the seat post (26.4 I'm pretty sure, but I can't get a good reading as my post is oblong) and front derailleur. I will say if for some reason the spindle that arrives today will not work, a BB/Crankset would jump to the top priority though. Other than that, maybe wheels with a freehub as that seems like an easier kill than the cassette and RD. My shifters say they will work with 8sp (and reference a DA-7400) so I wonder if that is the better path because if I decide to stay with friction shifting it might be finicky to adjust a 9sp cassette vs an 8 due to the extra cog? Is that concern unfounded? I'm currently researching vintage index capable RDs in case I see one at the swap. I've never been to one of these so not sure what to expect. I have a bike in my garage (hand-me-down from my father) that has the below - looks to be a 9sp cassette and ultegra RD. I could 'borrow' from this bike to see what I think, but I wouldn't want it to be permanent since it was a gift from my Dad. I measured my dropouts, they are 126mm so hopefully pretty easy to spread to 130.

Dfrost 

Bookmark this and consult it often. There is a huge amount of valuable data there. That’s where I and many others learned when initially getting into bikes repairs and upgrades. Sheldon passed away but the website has been maintained, even if it seems “old school”. It began as one of the earliest websites!
https://www.sheldonbrown.com

You’ll very likely find the bike swap is filled with helpful and knowledgeable bike folks, lots of tables filled with bike parts and entire bikes, being sold by individuals (maybe a few dealers, too). Ask questions!

Remember what I said about arriving early, best before the doors open. Expect that cash will be needed for most purchases.

If you can’t find a size stamped on your seatpost, then measure the outside diameter of yours near the top. Trying to measure the inside diameter of the seat tube is always tricky. Or ask on this forum. Plenty of Dawes-knowledgeable folks here. (@Chuckk, can you confirm the seatpost diameter for Eric’s model?)

Friction shifting 9-speed isn’t all that much harder than 8, from what I hear (haven’t used friction on my own bikes for 30 years). Adjusting the indexing isn’t any different.

What I forgot to mention previously is that you must use a 9-speed chain with 9-speed cassette. 8 and less all use the same chain, and chains improved when indexing came along.

Not sure what you mean by “vintage index capable RDs”. Doesn’t have to be vintage to work on your bike. I notice that your Dawes RD is claw-mounted, but looks to have been replaced at some time. That claw will effect the lateral travel.

If 7400-series work for 8-speed with those shifters, I have a DA 7402 RD that I’d be happy to send you (pay me something later if you can get it to work) for an 8-speed setup. Everything else from Shimano are essentially all cross-compatible until you get into 11-speed stuff. That Ultegra RD on your gift bike is a good one, although it’s a long cage that you wouldn’t need, but it could be used for “tests”.

ericlowney 

Dfrost I am leaning towards a DA-7400 RD, but do not yet understand the differences between a DA-7400 and a DA-7402. Is the 7402 simply a newer version? I really like the look of these vs the newer in appearance 7700s (7400 has the blacked background and less rounded). I guess that is what I meant by vintage - I want to keep the look of the bike at least somewhat classic (70s/80s). If I can find a wheelset and cassette I will probably take you up on the RD! I've been doing a lot of research and it sounds like my shifters are made to specifically work with the 7400 series RDs.

Dfrost 

Here are photos of the RD I have. Clearly I was mistaken - it’s a 7400.




And the relevant page from the Shimano Parts book


You would also benefit from a clamp-on cable guide (clamps around DT just above the BB shell) for most FD’s. Only a few have a cable housing stop. I might have one and will send a photo later if so.

Dfrost 

Just discovered this Shimano “Golden Arrow” set in my stash. Note that the FD has a cable housing stop, so no cable guide required. Pretty sure that the RD is not index compatible, but others on this forum might know better.

ericlowney 

I was able to pick up an 8 speed cassette and a FD at the bike swap for $20 for both. There wasn’t a lot of vendors, but it was a fun time and made some connections with other folks who like vintage steel. I’m going to keep an eye out for a 7400 series crankset and 7402 derailleur. Also will need to find some wheels that have an HG hub for an 8 speed. Maybe I’ll swing back by the coop again and poke around.

Dfrost 

That FD-M301 is a “top pull” model, confirmed in my Shimano parts book. That means that the shift cable would be coming down the ST to it, unlike yours with the cable coming up from below.

Mentioned earlier is that your FD uses housing running all the way to it from beneath the BB (your 4th photo in Post #26).

You said that you’re getting a DA FD with a DA 7400 crankset. That one will be a bottom pull type, but you’ll need a cable guide of some sort to route the bare shift cable either over the top of your BB shell, like this:

https://www.hoopriderparts.com/produ...le-guide---nos

Or something this to route it under the BB shell.

https://framebuildersupply.com/produ...et-cable-guide

That Golden Arrow FD has a cable housing stop - see 2nd photo in Post #34

HG hubs that fit 8-speed are very common these days. Bet you find plenty at that coop.

ericlowney 

Dfrost shoot - I figured I would probably end up getting something I couldn't use. At least it was only $10 and I can donate it to a local shop that builds bicycles for the needy. I took a picture of my FD cable routing because I'm still not sure what I'll need to do to get the DA FD to work (and I need an end cap on that cable...) . Maybe it'll be more clear to me once I see it. I really messed up one of the cotter pin threads yesterday trying to get them out (the cranks were not 180 degrees opposite) so I have two cotter pins coming in tomorrow. I figure I'll ride it cottered still for a while before I find a BB for the DA crankset and I can take my time working on cleaning up that crankset and getting the scratches out, polishing them, etc. Can keep an eye out for hubs, dishes, etc. and probably end up just building a set of wheels over some time. Really appreciate all the help/insight! I'm just excited to maybe get to start riding it into work again this week.

Dfrost 

Eric,
Front derailleur cables for most road bikes run bare, either under the BB like this:


Or over the top of the BB like this on older bikes: I slide a small piece of shift housing liner over the bare cable at the wrap-over location on both types to reduce friction a bit.


The clamp-on bracket mentioned previously provides the same over-BB routing as above for bikes that lack brazed-on cable guides. Here’s a bracket that would be clamped just above the BB showing the idea, although this one is actually for a RD cable. If that intrigues you, I could probably find an appropriately sized example (needs to match the 28.6mm DT diameter) where I volunteer, that goes through about 7,000 bikes of all sorts every year. It’s not a common item, but I think I’ve seen a few there amongst the many parts.


Your Dawes runs housing all the way to the FD. Here’s a repeat shot of the Golden Arrow FD shown earlier. See that housing stop above the spring? That would work with your cabling arrangement,


You’ve mentioned “dishes” several times. Not sure what you’re referring to - a wheel dishing gauge, perhaps?

Have you built wheels before? I love doing that (34 wheels, so far) and have taught others how to do so. Even with that repetition, I still follow the spoke lacing instructions in the book mentioned below, every time.

Good luck finding used HG hubs with sealed bearings. They exist, but they’re less common and pricy. Are you aware that many of the the nicest wheels, like Shimano Dura-Ace and Campagnolo are not sealed bearing? Don’t judge service demands from what you have. FWIW, my Shimano hubs - Ultegra, 600 Tri-color (Ultegra’s predecessor) and XT that are ridden over 1000 miles/year get serviced maybe every 5 or more years. Looks like my wife’s DT hubs are sealed bearings, however. When we're coasting downhill, mine are maybe a tiny bit faster, but that wouldn’t be how I’d judge the hub quality. I’ve worked on hundreds of lower end hubs where I volunteer, and the Shimanos mostly just need a bit more grease.

What bike repair guide are you using? There are good ones on-line, but I also appreciate the book ones, especially Lennard Zinn’s “Zinn and the Art of Road Bike Maintenance”:
https://www.amazon.com/Zinn-Art-Road...s%2C127&sr=8-2

ericlowney 

Hey thanks for all of the pics and info - I have not been using a book, more like youtube and google. A book is probably a smart idea. Dishes I meant buying the wheel dishes separate from hubs and then building them up, but I have never built wheels before so it would be a learning experience for sure. Sounds like I can probably find some wheels that would work though if I'm not too particular on the sealed hub piece. I thought it was an annual service type of thing, I can deal with every 5 years. I will probably hit up that coop periodically and just see what sorts of things pop up there. I was able to get the bike back together and took it for a quick trip just to make sure everything was working properly. I have a little bit of heel strike with the panniers I got, even with them all the way back, so I need to load up weight in them and see how they work loaded or else I may have to return them and swap for some smaller ones. Otherwise, not really in a rush for anything, I figure I can try to piece together bits here and there and maybe in a couple of months update the drivetrain and wheels. The bike feels so much tighter/smoother/faster after all the work on that bottom bracket and the new shifters are REALLY nice on the ends of the bars! Very happy so far!

swampyankee2

Not to hijack the thread, but that's a really nice looking RD set. They're not for sale are they? Asking for my own Dawes project

Dfrost 

Since I’ve kind of offered the FD to @ericlowney, I’ll wait on considering them available for sale elsewhere. But I will certainly keep you in mind. Note that the RD does not appear to be index compatible, since it isn’t a slant parallelogram type.

I will look for another FD with housing stop for him next weekend when I’m at my volunteer gig, where we have lots of used parts.

Dfrost 

Google has limitations, but YouTube, especially repairs by RJ the Bike Guy can be quite good, assuming you know the terms and have appropriate tools.

Does that bike coop offer repair classes?

By “wheel dishes” you meant the rims (and spokes?)

Sounds like a bike repair book would be just what you need, including improving your nomenclature regarding bikes and their parts. It helps all of us communicate when we use the same terminology. You’d also gain an appreciation for the tools needed for various levels of bike repair.

The Lennard Zinn book linked previously identifies repair tasks as to Level of difficulty, includes lists and illustrates the tools for those Levels. The repair illustrations are very good, and he keeps it from being too dry - a sound system is included among Level 2 tools, patience is suggested for Level 3 (I’d include that for All Levels!). There are other good repair books; Zinn’s is what I’ve been using for decades (several editions!). There’s even a section on bike fit!

A book that lots of us used early on was “Anybody’s Bike Book” by Tom Cuthbertson, still available on Amazon. It’s intended for getting started with bike repairs, but it’s still a good one.

https://www.amazon.com/Anybodys-Bike...s%2C126&sr=1-5

Edit: I hope the above didn’t come off as insulting or condescending

swampyankee2

I don't want to take anything away from Eric. But I don't need index ahifting either.

ericlowney 

Hey guys, I think I'm good on components for now. I picked up a 700c wheel that works with the cassette from the coop and so will strap a tire on it and even see how it works before I start buying more stuff (derailleurs, etc.). If swampy can use those components don't feel like you have to hold out for me. I may end up doing DA 7400 series stuff just because I would like everything to match (with a 7402 RD so it can index 8 speeds). I'll pick up a repair book in the meantime and study up!

ericlowney 

Finally got everything in to update the drivetrain to what I wanted. This frame may not deserve dura ace, but I do One day I might find a really nice sport touring frame and move everything over, but for now this will definitely ride! Only thing left I could do is swap to 700c wheels and add an 8sp cassette. Oh, and finally replace that seat post….



New short stem fixed my reach issues

DA bar end shifters compatible with 7400 or 7700

In my opinion, the best looking DA crankset - the 7410

FD 7400 to keep everything matching

RD 7402 SIS 8sp compatible

Oleksandra

Looks so pretty!

ericlowney 

I had to slope it back to get some extra heel clearance, but I did swap out panniers so I might be able to level it a bit more now. Thanks for the tip!

swampyankee2

Nice looking bike! Any plans for mudguards?

ericlowney 

I was going to consider it, but I need to figure out the trade-offs first after I swap to 700c. I.e. how big of a tire can I squeeze in there without mudguards, and if I add them, how much less tire can I fit? I'm just not sure until after I get the wheels and start playing around with how much space I have. Mudguards would be nice, but not a necessity for me

swampyankee2

Yeah, I bought a set of Chromoplastics for my Galaxy but have yet to put them on. I found a touring bike that has OE mudguards so now a fendered Galaxy seems redundant.

merziac

@ericlowney

Great job Eric, glad you saw it through.

Love the contrast here, DA on originally lower end frame that is really no slouch for a great result.

Trial by fire for the win, lots of priceless experience to be had here that will serve you very well going forward.

Many PITA things that you won't have to start from scratch on next time.

We can tell you how we do or think it should be done from here but you have to work through it for yourself in the end, the "valuable learning experience" is all up to you.

See it through and build skill or not and you end up with a bunch of parts in the bin that may stay there.

Solving the problem at hand and you know what the wrong parts are for and why they didn't work in the end, win, win despite the consternation along the way.