pjcampbell

What do you guys do to train/increase this power band. I can do 2x20s or 2x25 or 3x20 all day but I want to do something that is going to let me know I can actually hit that higher power for lower duration for short TTs, break away, etc. I am familiar with threshold intervals and vo2max but not entirely sure what will work best for that in between range that is so important.

StefanG

Maintaining a consistent power for 15 minutes would still be within your threshold zone, correct? In other words, you couldn't maintain Vo2Max levels for 15 minutes (otherwise, you should probably re-test). If that logic is correct, then I'd think you'd want to do 2x15's or 3x15's at the high end of your threshold zone (maybe at the bottom of Vo2Max zone, if feeling great) and then increase the duration over time to be able to hold that for longer than 15 minutes at a time.

MDcatV

2x20s
8x5'/1'
Pacing Workout
50" at or just above ftp, 10" acceleration x 4 reps
8x3s
4x6s
5x5s
90/90/90 workout (2x10' 90% ftp/5' recovery, 3x3' 90% 5'MMP/2' recovery, 5x30" 90% 1'MMP/30" recovery)
2 hours of 3' 100% FTP/2' 50% 5' max
long at +85% ftp
long em rides
etc., etc., etc.

anything that benefits threshold development or VO2Max will benefit that duration

brianappleby

ZeCannon Intervals: which I think are the same as 8x5/1 that was just mentioned above.
Ride for 5 minutes at 105%-107% of LT, then 1 minute recovery. Repeat until you can't breathe anymore. I've gotten as far as 5 of these. If you can do 8, more power to you.

There's a study that says these are better than 2x20's for increasing power at threshold.

echappist

usually 6

mollusk

Here is my training plan and remember what you paid for it:

If you have a specific target time for the TT, say 12 minutes or 15 minutes, what I would do is a lot of intervals at 50% or so longer times at an effort level just enough below the target level so they can be completed and some intervals for shorter times above the target level so you "die" before the TT time is reached. The reason why you do more of the former than the later is that the recovery from the later is longer. The former intervals get you ready for the total effort and the later intervals get you stronger and make you faster.

This is my simple minded theory.

mollusk

fixed

rruff

How hard do you go during recovery? I can do 8 of those easily if I'm less than 50% for the minute. Just thinking, you can probably do 25 minutes straight at 107%... so stick 4 1 min rests in there and it's too easy.

Probably even better would be 20x1/1 at 110%/90%.

pjcampbell

this is a good point.. 25 minutes at 107% of FTP is definitely easy with 1 minute break every 5 min.

i usually do hill intervals, not ideal for zecanon's unfortunately because either the hill isnt long enough, or it takes longer than 1 minute to bomb down.

badhat

i have a long 20 minute hill i use for ZCIs, basically i do 5 minutes up and coast down for a minute and turn around. i get a little over half way up in 5 intervals.

recon455

Only a competitive cyclist would do something as silly as going up a hill for 5 minutes and then down for 1 minute

pjcampbell

well I threw in a 1x25 the other day for fun. came in right around 108% of FTP. at least now I know where to target my power for practice TT coming up on Tuesday. I dunno about the value of this... I am sure it doesn't hurt, combined with plenty of 2x25's.

caloso

Flatlanders' version: Ride into the wind for 5, turn around for 1.

pjcampbell

This is ancient but I started is so figure it's OK to bring it back up.

I wonder if anyone has any input on say 8-10 intervals for vo2max.

I know for vo2max Coggan recommends 5x5' with ~5' recovery. So figure total "on" time is 25 minutes.

I don't like 5' intervals. It is too short for me and I feel like the first 3 minutes is the hardest part. For some reason when I get to like 5' I can just grind it out for another 3' , maybe even 5'. I start to feel better at 5'!

If I take a 5' interval and drag it out to 8, does it become more of a threshold interval even though it's well into my vo2max power range (If looking at the power training zones on WKO). I'd say in terms of % , we're talking 15-20% above FTP... or 85-87% of all-out CP5.

I asked Dr Coggan about the 5x5's at one point and I think he recommended the 5x5's at ~90% of best CP5 , so at 85-87% I am a little lower than recommended power, but 3x8's and my total workout time is just about the same.

echappist

thing to keep in mind is that with a 5x5x5, the time you actually spend at VO2max may be ~20 minutes. VO2 uptake kinetics usually takes about a minute or so to reach max rate (i.e. VO2max), and once you begin your rest period, you have to start from a lower level (though probably higher than where you were when you started the first interval).

As such, a one minute on one minute off is also a VO2max workout as the VO2 rate doesn't drop as much after one minute.

Your suggestion of 3x8 is not a bad one, as you probably are spending 6.5-7 minutes (80%) per interval at VO2max as opposed to the 3.75-4 minutes for a 5 minute interval.

Creatre

I think doing harder 3'-4' intervals and doing more of them would be better IMO. Or refocusing on proper 5' intervals. If you are able to do 8' at 5' pace, somethings not right.

5' - 8' intervals for me obviously transition from a Vo2 to a super threshold. I can do my 5' intervals at 90% CP5, but I am FRIED after 5 of them. Remember it's not the first or second one that counts (they may feel easy, if vo2 can feel easy that is), but those last few will hurt and will be very hard to maintain the same watts as the first few.

I would recommend doing 5x4' at 95% CP5 or 5x5' at 90% CP5 and focusing heavily on getting the watts very similar between all 5 efforts. I just don't see how you would think those would feel too short, or like you can do another 3 minutes.

echappist

You can only generate so much power aerobically when you are at VO2max. Once there, going harder just digs more into your anaerobic reserves without having you spend more time at VO2max.
one should be able to operate at VO2max for about 8 minutes; what you are describing about the first or second being easy is because you haven't fully depleted your anaerobic work capacity. awc recharges somewhat in 5 minutes, but not to the point that you'll be anywhere close to the beginning of the first interval

the goal of VO2max workout is to: 1) have enough intensity so that VO2max will be elicited, and 2) stay there once you reach it. Spending more AWC once you are at VO2max really doesn't help with raising VO2max, per se.

edit: doing harder intervals (say 93% at 5min) at 4 minutes may indeed elicit other adaptations, and going at a higher wattage may reduce the time needed to reach VO2 saturation, but its effect on raising VO2max won't be too much different from going at 88% of 5min power

Creakyknees

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-in...#Tabata_method