Don't be these guys (two abreast in traffic)
02-21-22, 08:57 AM
#176
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What are you trying to say without saying here?
These areas are often very diverse in income, race, ethnicity, whatever, I really think you have no idea what big metropolitan areas are like these days.
What's your point anyway? As usual, you're off on some tangent where no matter how anyone responds you're going to have some reason to discount it. Basically, we're all making the same point that higher density housing doesn't have to be anything like the absurdly crowded conditions like the pictures you produced, and there's multiple examples of this in the US and other countries.
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02-21-22, 12:03 PM
#177
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The way we in America tend to have "zones" for commercial and residential areas makes that "European mix" impossible to do. Older cities such as Boston or NYC might have that, but newer housing tends to be zoned "residential" with maybe a small "7-11" commercial zone at an intersection nearby.
The US mentality forces us to commute some distance for nearly all our goods. Now, after two years of WFH... many of us are seeing a call back to the office that may or may not be an actual requirement for the office to function... depending on the tasks. Sure, it's is difficult for a factory to run, without bodies to standing side by side... but other tasks, involving computers, phones... typical office work, really doesn't require a daily car/bus/train commute.
Maybe other areas of our lives can decentralize and we can have local bakers, grocers and other vendors again... But I won't bet on it... 2 years isn't enough to change life long habits.
As long as the mentality is that someone is gonna drive 3-4 blocks for a loaf of bread... cars will be used.
The US mentality forces us to commute some distance for nearly all our goods. Now, after two years of WFH... many of us are seeing a call back to the office that may or may not be an actual requirement for the office to function... depending on the tasks. Sure, it's is difficult for a factory to run, without bodies to standing side by side... but other tasks, involving computers, phones... typical office work, really doesn't require a daily car/bus/train commute.
Maybe other areas of our lives can decentralize and we can have local bakers, grocers and other vendors again... But I won't bet on it... 2 years isn't enough to change life long habits.
As long as the mentality is that someone is gonna drive 3-4 blocks for a loaf of bread... cars will be used.
Again, you have it backwards.
The businesses are in the correct places. It's the housing miles from anything useful that is misplaced.
Nothing should be being built out there - not housing, not businesses, nothing, because such locations only work by car.
We need to concentrate the development of housing as well as business in the denser, walkable areas.
The businesses are in the correct places. It's the housing miles from anything useful that is misplaced.
Nothing should be being built out there - not housing, not businesses, nothing, because such locations only work by car.
We need to concentrate the development of housing as well as business in the denser, walkable areas.
Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 02-21-22 at 12:07 PM.
02-21-22, 12:25 PM
#178
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What is Genec and UniChris complaining about then, if dense, walkable housing areas are numerous and available in or near big metropolitan areas for them and anybody else seeking that housing. And if they are influenced by such factors, that even better these desirable dense walkable housing areas are very diverse in income, race, ethnicity, whatever. What is the problem of which they post? Could it be that these allegedly walkable dense communities are not close to anything that is in walkable distance except at best a convenience store?
You want to deny that the US is an outlier on reliance on cars and our housing patterns aren't related to that, knock yourself out.
02-21-22, 12:26 PM
#179
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What is Genec and UniChris complaining about then, if dense, walkable housing areas are numerous and available in or near big metropolitan areas for them and anybody else seeking that housing. And if they are influenced by such factors, that even better these desirable dense walkable housing areas are very diverse in income, race, ethnicity, whatever. What is the problem of which they post? Could it be that these allegedly walkable dense communities are not close to anything that is in walkable distance except at best a convenience store?
And if the apartments/condos don't exist, it is due to zoning, where each house gets a small "lawn farm" and garage, well outside town and a long drive to the shopping mall... downtown office etc.
(that was the "complaint" in a nutshell... ie, we don't look like walkable, bikeable cities in Europe.)
But hey... the real OP of this thread is about two cyclists using one lane on a two lane (either way) road and motorists not understanding how to change lanes to pass the cyclists. Apparently turn signals and steering wheels are too difficult to use when in a 4 wheel motorized couch.
02-21-22, 02:18 PM
#180
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Either you failed to read or follow the thread... the dense housing areas should also be close to mixed commercial/retail shopping... which often is not the case... such shopping tends to be in malls and apartments/condos tend to be in separate areas, thus requiring a drive to the vast parking lots of the huge malls.
02-21-22, 03:07 PM
#181
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This barely has anything to do with cycling, but.
We have more people in my town's 5 square miles than in all of Des Moines County's 530 square miles. And we are far more diverse, though that's a low bar.
When side effects took me from behind the wheel and off my saddle, I could *WALK*, to supermarkets (yes, plural), drug stores (yes, plural), bakeries (yes, plural), restaurants (yes, plural, but Covid, so I would walk home with the take away meal), coffee shops (yes, plural). churches (yes, plural), LBS's (yes, plural), libraries, town halls, schools, etc etc etc.
When the docs let me back on the bike, but not back on the roads, I could ride to the hospital every day.
p.s. Your "undesirable" picture was the largest Jewish community in the world at the time. It is now Chinatown. PEOPLE lived there then, and they live there still. I WALKED to that corner whenever I visited my in-laws. They lived a couple of blocks away. But I know, NOBODY wants to live there. It's too crowded.
-mr. bill
We have more people in my town's 5 square miles than in all of Des Moines County's 530 square miles. And we are far more diverse, though that's a low bar.
When side effects took me from behind the wheel and off my saddle, I could *WALK*, to supermarkets (yes, plural), drug stores (yes, plural), bakeries (yes, plural), restaurants (yes, plural, but Covid, so I would walk home with the take away meal), coffee shops (yes, plural). churches (yes, plural), LBS's (yes, plural), libraries, town halls, schools, etc etc etc.
When the docs let me back on the bike, but not back on the roads, I could ride to the hospital every day.
p.s. Your "undesirable" picture was the largest Jewish community in the world at the time. It is now Chinatown. PEOPLE lived there then, and they live there still. I WALKED to that corner whenever I visited my in-laws. They lived a couple of blocks away. But I know, NOBODY wants to live there. It's too crowded.
-mr. bill
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02-21-22, 04:02 PM
#182
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I’m sorry, typo, we only have one town hall that I can walk to.
And, though I rarely go to convenience stores, we got those too.
-mr. bill
And, though I rarely go to convenience stores, we got those too.
-mr. bill
02-21-22, 04:51 PM
#183
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That's the problem.
The sort of thing that is needed very much exists, very much works, and is desirable and enjoyed by its residents.
But there isn't enough of it, because traditionally we've built car-dependent housing, both dense neighborhoods far from anything, and sparse large-lot neighborhoods in much of the land that actually is within walking distance of things.
Last edited by UniChris; 02-21-22 at 05:29 PM.
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02-21-22, 06:31 PM
#184
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02-21-22, 07:48 PM
#185
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I even walked to Fenway Park for my covid shots, walked to the hospital bunches of times, even when I couldn’t “walk” and used a knee scooter.
But I’m sure those won’t count for some reason, like my town won’t count because it’s some sort of imagined hell scape, or even worse, a nice place for families.
-mr. bill
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02-22-22, 06:15 AM
#186
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Then those allegedly desirable dense walkable housing areas are NOT walkable to anyplace that anybody wants to walk to. Too bad eh? Back in the day as pictured previously those folks had it all without depending on cars - dense housing and walkable distances to shopping, schools and nearby employment, if not working at home! Not even any need for bike lanes!
Those places are a lot more "desirable" when they do have easy access to the stores AND a fair number of people who live there will also work in the stores.
Commuting dominated by cars has gotten to a level that really can't be sustained. You want so hard to get a gotcha here, you don't even know what you're arguing for or against. No one is arguing for the density levels of 1900 NYC, but this country has gone to such an extreme in the other direction that we really can't sustain our highway infrastructure.
Let's make this simple for you--there are some "desirable" high-density areas, there should be more if there weren't legal measures taken that discourage them.
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02-22-22, 06:20 AM
#187
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Oh, I’ve walked to lots more than a couple or three town halls and city halls.
I even walked to Fenway Park for my covid shots, walked to the hospital bunches of times, even when I couldn’t “walk” and used a knee scooter.
But I’m sure those won’t count for some reason, like my town won’t count because it’s some sort of imagined hell scape, or even worse, a nice place for families.
-mr. bill
I even walked to Fenway Park for my covid shots, walked to the hospital bunches of times, even when I couldn’t “walk” and used a knee scooter.
But I’m sure those won’t count for some reason, like my town won’t count because it’s some sort of imagined hell scape, or even worse, a nice place for families.
-mr. bill
And I've seen signs in Hebrew in Brookline, so he definitely will say it doesn't count.
Last edited by livedarklions; 02-22-22 at 07:41 AM.
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02-22-22, 12:32 PM
#188
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Then those allegedly desirable dense walkable housing areas are NOT walkable to anyplace that anybody wants to walk to. Too bad eh? Back in the day as pictured previously those folks had it all without depending on cars - dense housing and walkable distances to shopping, schools and nearby employment, if not working at home! Not even any need for bike lanes!
02-22-22, 01:37 PM
#189
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If there was still a P&R list, that is where this thread belongs.
02-22-22, 03:34 PM
#190
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Funny I didn't see you defending OP's "A&S incorrect opinion", yet you went right into the supposedly verboten political discussion.
Do you seriously think the OP had a point?
And sorry, people who don't want to get "bashed" shouldn't tell us they're typing slowly so we can understand.
02-22-22, 05:47 PM
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The fact is that these cyclist needed to use the main roadway because there isn't another route for them. That they are still enjoying the ride is what makes this whole scenario a perceived problem. How dare they...
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04-12-22, 07:58 PM
#192
Old and in the way.
If you look to the left
[/there is a whole other lane you can pass them on.
in my town they opened up a Popeyes and there is a lane blocked by people sitting in their cars to get 2000 calories/ person of fried chicken 3 blocks long. No one complains about that. But a a cyclist in the road way and they all sound like this guy. Funny how that works
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04-13-22, 11:05 AM
#193
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[/there is a whole other lane you can pass them on.
in my town they opened up a Popeyes and there is a lane blocked by people sitting in their cars to get 2000 calories/ person of fried chicken 3 blocks long. No one complains about that. But a a cyclist in the road way and they all sound like this guy. Funny how that works
I posted in another thread that as a driver, I have spent more time stopped behind drivers waiting to turn left into a Dunkin Donuts than all of the times I've had to wait or slow for cyclists combined. I haven't measured it, but I almost never get delayed by a cyclist for more than a few seconds.
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04-13-22, 11:38 AM
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Be those guys. Take up the lane you are legally allowed to be in to prevent you from being run down like a dog in the street.
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04-13-22, 12:40 PM
#195
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If bicycles on that location is a problem for motorists, it would be a good place to hold a critical mass cycling event.
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04-19-22, 08:37 AM
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I think ignoring that getting in the way creates ill will towards cyclists is silly. Especially in context of dissing riders for runnings lights and stop signs. Not saying that these guys shouldn’t take the lane, but it absolutely upsets drivers. Pointing at laws ignores psychology and safety
Last edited by LarrySellerz; 04-19-22 at 08:41 AM.
04-19-22, 09:18 AM
#197
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Bikes are often ridden for leisure, which I think is the genesis for this complaint. This is a tough issue for sure, y’all can dump on OP all you want but the truth is that the main reason motorists hate us is because we get in the way and slow things down. I often have to ride on this fast street with just two lanes, and taking the lane forces many cars to merge lanes and slows things down. Unfortunately the shoulder is small with parked cars and lots of cars turning. There really isn’t a good solution, taking the lane would be safer (until a crazed cager takes me out) but is not very courteous to the other road users.
I think ignoring that getting in the way creates ill will towards cyclists is silly. Especially in context of dissing riders for runnings lights and stop signs. Not saying that these guys shouldn’t take the lane, but it absolutely upsets drivers. Pointing at laws ignores psychology and safety
I think ignoring that getting in the way creates ill will towards cyclists is silly. Especially in context of dissing riders for runnings lights and stop signs. Not saying that these guys shouldn’t take the lane, but it absolutely upsets drivers. Pointing at laws ignores psychology and safety
Here's where we disagree--I don't think it's acceptable that cars causing delay is considered normal and bikes causing delay is the result of the cyclist doing something "wrong". and discourteous. I assert my legal rights in part to combat treating the attitudes you're describing as the norm.
You show me where a driver is expected to operate in an unsafe position or not use the road they want as a matter of "courtesy" and maybe I'd feel like that was worth discussing. In the meantime, as a driver, I am never actually delayed significantly by cyclists, but I get delayed by my fellow drivers routinely. It's considered a source of grievance when it's a bicyclist, it's normal operation when it's a driver. You might be satisfied with that double standard, I am not.
BTW, don't you participate in illegally large group rides? Those have to engender more anti-cyclist sentiment than anything I can imagine that doesn't involve intentional violence.
04-19-22, 09:34 AM
#198
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Pondering this further, everyone has to be somewhere. We all live in a fairly crowed society, deal with it. If you feel cyclist slow you down on your usual route, leave earlier.
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04-19-22, 10:57 AM
#199
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04-19-22, 01:02 PM
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Bikes are often ridden for leisure, which I think is the genesis for this complaint. This is a tough issue for sure, y’all can dump on OP all you want but the truth is that the main reason motorists hate us is because we get in the way and slow things down. I often have to ride on this fast street with just two lanes, and taking the lane forces many cars to merge lanes and slows things down. Unfortunately the shoulder is small with parked cars and lots of cars turning. There really isn’t a good solution, taking the lane would be safer (until a crazed cager takes me out) but is not very courteous to the other road users.
I think ignoring that getting in the way creates ill will towards cyclists is silly. Especially in context of dissing riders for runnings lights and stop signs. Not saying that these guys shouldn’t take the lane, but it absolutely upsets drivers. Pointing at laws ignores psychology and safety
I think ignoring that getting in the way creates ill will towards cyclists is silly. Especially in context of dissing riders for runnings lights and stop signs. Not saying that these guys shouldn’t take the lane, but it absolutely upsets drivers. Pointing at laws ignores psychology and safety
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