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How do terrible roads become popular cycling routes?

Old 03-22-22, 09:04 AM
  #26  
himespau 
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People just out to pound out miles don't care about nice scenery if they're focused only on the road/wheel in front of them, so why waste time plotting a route that has it? They'd rather focus on plotting routes through well-maintained roads.

Long group rides work better with stretches without intersections that the organizers have to pay to have policed.

And this:
Originally Posted by tomato coupe
All the cool kids know the best routes, but we don't post them on Strava. (We want to keep them to ourselves.)
Those quiet, winding country roads with no traffic won't stay quiet and traffic-free if everyone knows about them.

For me, I get my hard training (and racing) done on Zwift. When I'm riding outside (almost never after getting hit last spring), I like to go for meandering rides where I can enjoy the scenery since worrying about traffic and all the stops and starts of intersections means I can't focus on getting a solid continuous workout in.
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Old 03-22-22, 09:25 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by pdlamb
And no shoulders and high speeds doesn't tell you anything without traffic levels.

Anyone remember the Adventure Cyclist article a few years back when a group of TransAm riders decided to see if they could ride naked for one mile without anyone seeing them? Boring, flat, straight in that instance meant drivers could see the cyclists for a couple miles (and in that instance, they did!).
Yeah. I have toured a good deal in MT, where speed limits are almost always high (e.g. 60-70 mph on state highways), and sometimes there is little or no shoulder. No big deal if traffic is light. I have even ridden on sections of I-90 that had pretty light traffic when I was on them. And the overwhelming majority of drivers, including truckers, were quite courteous, moving over into the left lane even though there were shoulders wide enough to accommodate semis.

Heh. Must have missed that article. Do you remember where they were? I can think of at least one flat, wide open stretch on the TA where that would likely be possible, at least early in the morning. The 100+ miles between Lander and Rawlins, WY has some pretty deserted stretches at times, unless you count the antelope grazing in the fields. There is really only one town along the way.
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Old 03-22-22, 09:25 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Rolla
Some of the most popular road routes around here are similarly awful -- lots of traffic, poor visibility, and featureless scenery. I gather that a lot of "serious" riders are just looking for uninterrupted miles, with few other considerations.



Unimaginative people settle for unimaginative routes. Ignore Strava and start making your own.
That's definitely what I tend to do. My routes are usually pretty unique. My preferences are more towards more rural, rugged, twisty, hilly. Fortunately I have a vast library of the types of roads I enjoy in my area from thousands of miles of dual sport motorcycle riding. A lot of my rides I might only see a couple of cars for hours.

Originally Posted by base2
It would help to know the posters location. I can't imagine a more boring ride than grid roads in the flat lands. Go North 8 miles, go West 6 miles, go South, up & down a few rollers, go over the Interstate overpass, then make one last left turn & bring it on home...Just, yuck.

Honestly, hills & mountains, people!

Lazy route planning sucks. Lame roads suck. Flat roads suck. Straight roads suck. If there is a river or a lake, ride a road that goes to it. Follow the shoreline if possible. If there is a mountain or hill, at every turn choose only the direction that goes up.

Here's a super secret tip: Almost all arterials have a lesser used secondary road running near by. Ride that one instead.

Study the Strava Global heatmap. Segment search. Look for the top riders on an interesting segment. Odds are one of the top 10 or someone they rode with is public enough you can download the .gpx & trace their route in Ride With GPS...sharing this information for the good of all is why it exists. Use it.
I am in the Tulsa area. Most of the popular routes I've seen are just as you describe, go straight, turn after a few miles, go straight, after a few miles turn the other way. I'm definitely not in the hilliest area around but there's still plenty of elevation gain to be had if you know where to look. It really just seems like nobody is looking.

I wonder if many of these routes came from before the days where everyone had a gps in their pocket so that routes were kept simple and easy to follow.
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Old 03-22-22, 09:29 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Kedosto
I suspect you’re witnessing the same thing that happens when people decide to try commuting by bicycle; they head out on the shortest, most direct route to their destination. Not surprisingly, it’s often a terrible choice. Scouting out better routes takes forethought and effort, and sometimes the willingness to take longer or steeper routes.

It seems in our auto-centric society, people want to ride on the routes they know. Are they unaware, unwilling, or unmotivated to make better riding choices? I dunno. And only you can answer, but are your choices really better? If you could poll all those other riders, would they agree?
TBH, I like to mix things up, so sometimes direct, efficient and uninteresting is the best way to go if I'm trying to hit a goal or a destination, but some of the more interesting rides I've had have involved looking at a map to plot out a different route to the same destination. That gives me the known escape hatch if the thing that looks like an interesting ride on the map craps out for whatever reason. I also have a variety of routes I pick--sometimes I'm in the mood for the big hills, others I just want to point my bike at a good lunch 50 miles from my house and ride back afterwards.

For this thread to actually be interesting (when speculating and crabbing about the routing habits of the unenlightened is not), maybe it would be better if people discussed how they actually find "the road less taken." Obviously, following the crowd on Strava or going to large organized group events won't get you there, but let's hear from people who are successfully "exploring." For me, a lot of it is actually just improv--in the middle of a routine ride, I can just decide "that road looks nice" and take the right instead of going straight. If my goal that day is just a number of miles and I have plenty of daylight, it really doesn't matter to me if it takes a little more effort or more time.

So, assuming you don't know an area well, how do you "sniff out" a good route?
.
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Old 03-22-22, 09:30 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by himespau
People just out to pound out miles don't care about nice scenery if they're focused only on the road/wheel in front of them, so why waste time plotting a route that has it? They'd rather focus on plotting routes through well-maintained roads.

Long group rides work better with stretches without intersections that the organizers have to pay to have policed.

And this:

Those quiet, winding country roads with no traffic won't stay quiet and traffic-free if everyone knows about them.

For me, I get my hard training (and racing) done on Zwift. When I'm riding outside (almost never after getting hit last spring), I like to go for meandering rides where I can enjoy the scenery since worrying about traffic and all the stops and starts of intersections means I can't focus on getting a solid continuous workout in.
See, I think this is the kind of response I was hoping for, a logical explanation of why someone would choose to ride just any old road. It's not my cup of tea, but I can respect it. After all, we're all free to ride wherever we want.
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Old 03-22-22, 09:37 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by freetors
I am in the Tulsa area. Most of the popular routes I've seen are just as you describe, go straight, turn after a few miles, go straight, after a few miles turn the other way. I'm definitely not in the hilliest area around but there's still plenty of elevation gain to be had if you know where to look. It really just seems like nobody is looking.

I wonder if many of these routes came from before the days where everyone had a gps in their pocket so that routes were kept simple and easy to follow.
For group rides, especially those that frequently have new riders, you're probably right. Long complicated routes with lots of turns, you might have to have a sweeper so no one gets lost when they get dropped. Not many people volunteer for that job. Straight out and back? Just tell anyone who gets dropped or has a mechanical to just turn around and go back the way they came.
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Old 03-22-22, 09:54 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by freetors
I wonder if many of these routes came from before the days where everyone had a gps in their pocket so that routes were kept simple and easy to follow.
I know that's a huge part of my willingness to plan longer routes and explore further out than I did when I was younger. Having the GPS with me gives me confidence that I can improv a little out there without feeling like I'm risking becoming terminally lost far away from home.

Have you considered maybe putting yourself into the position of planning group rides for smaller groups? I'm thinking you're discovering that the routing knowledge you have that you were taking for granted is actually rare insight you're getting from your other two-wheeled pursuits. It doesn't sound like your routes would be suitable for a big crowd, but it may not be hard to put together a like-minded group who would appreciate these routes.
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Old 03-22-22, 09:55 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by unterhausen
Have you looked at some of the NJ permanents? Some people definitely ride on some roads in NJ that I find terrifying. And even go so far as designing permanents in Central Pennsylvania that route along some terrifying roads as well.
I am not familiar with any of the Perms in my area but did look at the only two that get into my area. Most seem to wander towards the Shore in the Piney area. My experience in general down there is positive WRT roads, the drivers? Not so much.

Half Dirty and Meander to Milford Perms are on good roads with little traffic. There used to be a Perm from Petes in Flemington that took you straight down Rt 523 into Stockton. Not a horrible road but one that I never ride because there are 2 or 3 much, much better alternatives or like the one 200K PA used to do in the winter from Milford up to Hope area and then down to Hopewell, it takes Rt 579 and 519. Good choice especially in winter, they are always clear of ice but there are much, much better alternatives. Not horrible roads but I never take them in warm weather. Those three county routes are the worst in the area IMO but they are not bad. They have shoulders and good line of sight.

I have been on rides in other areas and the local riders refused to take the planned course because there were better albeit longer segments around the busy and terrifying road. When I did not listen to the locals and followed the cuesheet, I always regretted it. As an aside, on Saturday's 200k, the GPS file on my Garmin flashed "Warning" in Red just before a corner with the nastiest pothole imaginable. That was cool. I don't know how that came to be but my feeble and dehydrated brain got a kick out of it
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Old 03-22-22, 09:57 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by unterhausen
Have you looked at some of the NJ permanents?
When did this thread start being about funny hair styles?

Sorry, I just had to.
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Old 03-22-22, 10:22 AM
  #35  
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Loving this thread.
OP asks a question in the subject and is immediately met with responses like 'do you have a question?', 'what do you expect?', and 'do you think everyone likes what you like?'

More please!
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Old 03-22-22, 10:56 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by freetors
It really just seemed like a course for groadies to just pound out some watts without being distracted by anything even remotely interesting.
The things that make for good scenic and safe cycling routes are often diametrically opposed to the design of a route that can keep a "group" together.

So, I almost never do group rides as a roadie.

Rides that keep groups together:
-flatter
-fewer curves
-fewer turns, simpler route
-less stops

Rides that might be more scenic and safer:
-hillier
-more curves
-more turns, complex route
-more stops

Why is that? Well hills break up groups by both power and weight abilities. Next up, curves might be fun or scenic, but can havoc a larger group if there's a lot of them or they are tighter. Complex routes might lead folks to miss turns and take wrong turns and the group to split and get frustrated. But complex routes allow you to often take safer routes by bypassing busier or faster speed limit roads. More stops as in stop signs and lights aren't by design, but you encounter more often on a safer route because you're bypassing the busier dangerous stuff.

Local to me there's a couple group ride routes where I shake my head. I just won't go to them. Or if I do, I let a person know that I'm familiar with that I'll latch on or peel off to avoid the troublesome areas.

But, a huge one for all this is hills. Group rides tend to hate hills as to stay a true "all together no drop" ride, you are dictated by the slowest rider in that grouping.

That's my $0.02.

My personal road rides might have near 100 turns in a 60mi ride. I would think that would be a non-starter for most group rides. These turns connect me to parts of town or country in a manner to avoid high speed limits or high volume areas.
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Old 03-22-22, 10:59 AM
  #37  
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I guess the people who lay out rides around me are more focused or just better at finding good routes than some. I've found a lot of nice roads to ride on from those group rides. I only remember one major highway for about three miles; shoulder there was borderline acceptable, and the alternate was a 25 mile detour (closest routing) with another 1500-2000' of climbing.

Originally Posted by indyfabz
Heh. Must have missed that article. Do you remember where they were? I can think of at least one flat, wide open stretch on the TA where that would likely be possible, at least early in the morning. The 100+ miles between Lander and Rawlins, WY has some pretty deserted stretches at times, unless you count the antelope grazing in the fields. There is really only one town along the way.
Hah! My daughter decided a place didn't deserve to be called a town if it didn't have a post office, a traffic light or stop sign on the main drag, or a church named after the town. Sorry, Jeffrey City doesn't reach that high bar.

No, that was the stretch east of Larned, KS. I think that was where I started counting cars and miles. IIRC I ended up with about 6 cars and trucks over 15 miles.

Last edited by pdlamb; 03-22-22 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 03-22-22, 11:31 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by pdlamb
I guess the people who lay out rides around me are more focused or just better at finding good routes than some. I've found a lot of nice roads to ride on from those group rides. I only remember one major highway for about three miles; shoulder there was borderline acceptable, and the alternate was a 25 mile detour (closest routing) with another 1500-2000' of climbing.
Two churches in town. One of which now serves as a cyclist hostel. But neither are named after the town. Definitely no traffic lights. Wouldn't be surprised if there are no stop signs anywhere. There was a post office when I was there in 2000. It appears to be closed. Closest one seems to be 39 miles away in Bairoil, which is named after Bair Oil Company, which was founded by Charles Bair. There is natural gas drilling there as well. Pretty interesting to look at on Google Street View.
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Old 03-23-22, 12:08 PM
  #39  
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Where I live there is a section of highway along the California coast that is the busiest two lane road in the entire country and traffic includes large tractor trailer rigs. The state transportation planners have done nothing over the past 50 years to make it safer and actually did work this past year that made it far more dangerous for cyclists. I used to tour the length of the state a couple times each year but long ago decided this was getting to be much too dangerous with American drivers being as aggressive and inattentive as they are.

The trick with bike routes is dealing with elevation gains and steep grades and not wanting to leave weaker riders behind. In terms of wider shoulders these tend to be only along major highways where they provide a place for motorists to pull over to change a tire (which is much more dangerous than people realize).

There is also the matter of having enough parking area available for riders to leave their cars and start the ride. And ideally it should be an area where the riders can come back and find their vehicles intact. This is more of a problem than one might think but check your own area and look where such areas exist.
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Old 03-23-22, 12:37 PM
  #40  
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If you're using Strava global heatmap, you're going to see some road routes that might not seem to make any sense. For example, a big bright loop out in the country that goes from a frontage road along an interstate, to 2-lane highway, to potholed and barely paved farm roads, to another 2-lane highway, and to more potholed and barely paved farm roads. If you're not part of the road racing scene, you probably wouldn't know that it's the course of a popular annual road race. Or you might see a route that goes right out to the boundary of the next county and stops. That's the big Saturday race ride, which has had a county line sprint since the days of downtube shifters.
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Old 03-23-22, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by caloso
If you're using Strava global heatmap, you're going to see some road routes that might not seem to make any sense. For example, a big bright loop out in the country that goes from a frontage road along an interstate, to 2-lane highway, to potholed and barely paved farm roads, to another 2-lane highway, and to more potholed and barely paved farm roads. If you're not part of the road racing scene, you probably wouldn't know that it's the course of a popular annual road race. Or you might see a route that goes right out to the boundary of the next county and stops. That's the big Saturday race ride, which has had a county line sprint since the days of downtube shifters.
And don't forget all the Strava legs where the average is 55-65 mph (people forget to turn off their GPS when the ride's over and they're heading home).
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