estu87

hi everyone, how much is the weight of njs frameset with headset and bb? i saw this anchor njs frame with columbus spirit keirin sticker on it and asked the weight of it, and the seller said it was around 5-6 kg. is it true? because i seen some r725 frame weight just over 3kg but without headset and bb. sorry if i asked in the wrong subforum, just made an account to post this question

veganbikes

They make these things called scales, try using that! Nobody can tell you the weight of some random thing on the internet that nobody can actually weigh here. If you are so worried about it just ask the seller to take a picture of it on a scale or use the googles as it seems like that is more your interest.You are probably going to pay a premium to get a used bike that may even be dented and was used for betting sport. They are cool bikes but if you want one get it, if you are worried about weight, get a custom bike and get something built for you and out of materials that work for the weight you are looking for.

TugaDude

If the seller said 5-6 kg. they clearly were just guessing. The thing about Keirin bike frames and components is they have developed a fan base and numerous misconceptions have resulted.

NJS does not mean it is a quality component. It might be, but the designation is meant to provide uniformity so that one racer cannot obtain an advantage over others due to equipment. They want the rider to be the difference, just like NASCAR wants the driver to win the race, not necessarily the car. The other misconception is that NJS certified bikes and components are lightweight. Again, they may be, but not always. Weight is actually controlled so that rider's bikes aren't too light and fragile. The worst thing would be for a bike to suffer a mechanical failure during a race putting everyone at risk. So durability trumps weight.

Rolla

A Matsuda-built NJS frame can be under 3 kg with h/s and bb, but there's no common weight standard for all NJS frames; it depends on size, for one thing. Like TugaDude said, they're built for durability.

son_of_clyde

For reference, I have an NJS stamped Anchor (Kaisei 019, 56.5cm), and it weighs ~18.5lb (8.4kg) built as follows:

Nitto B123 38 cm bars (chopped to bullhorn), Nitto Pearl stem 120mm, single Ultegra dual pivot brake caliper (front) with lever/cable, Reynolds 531 fork (didn't want to drill Anchor fork), Thomson Elite seatpost (27.2mm X 250mm), Selle SLK saddle, Campagnolo Record C Pista crankset (165mm), Dura Ace chainring (45t, 1/8"), Regina chain (1/8"), Dura Ace cogs (16t, 14t), Suntour Superbe rear hub (36h, "flip flop"), Campagnolo Record front hub (qr/road, 32h) Mavic Open Pro rims, Continental Ultra Sport 2 tires + cheap inner tubes.

estu87

sorry if my question annoy you. the seller said he is not in his workshop with that frame so maybe he just guessing the weight, or he mean a fully built weight.
i planned to build my first bike with this frame, my choice is seaboard fg03 and this anchor frame i asked about. i did research both frame info, and apparently the fg03 only weigh less than 2kg for frame only, then i look about the material, the r725 and columbus spirit, and learned that Columbus is better steel than r725. so i leaned to get that anchor frame, and when i asked about the weight of the frame just to compare with the fg03, the seller said it weigh about 6-8kg, thats why i'm wondering whether if thats true, or he just sell a custom hi ten steel frame with anchor sticker on it lol. but he send the picture of the njs stamp and serial number below the bb tube so i guess its real stuff. i did googled the njs framset weight i only found two result that says a particular frameset weigh about 2.5 to 3kg, and a fully built which around 8kg.
i did research about keirin race too, and not really bothered by that, the seller said there is no dent in the frame, and send picture of any chipped paint on it.

i know njs just mean standard for keirin racing. i just like the look of the lugged steel frame and the quality of the material hoping it would last for a long time, and when i live it's hard to find classic frame with columbus spirit tubing. even if this frame is not njs stamped i would buy it too because i really dig the color.

but is it possible to weight almost double that? maybe the frame size is for a bigfoot lol.

maybe the seller meant the fully build weight or just spit some random number haha. the owner offered some nitto bar, stem and seatpost, i don't know how much weight it'll add to the frame. i not planning to install it with fancy part, just decent part that i hope is durable lol, not really care what brand it will be. and btw, i also thinking about the front brake, i don't want to drill the fork too, and when i mentioned that to the seller he said that i can use disc brake with caliper adapter to the fork rather buying dia compe brake. is it possible with the width of the fork?

and btw, this is the picture of the frame from the seller imgur.com/FHWRYSS, supposed to arrive today. so excited sorry for my poor english

TugaDude

You cannot use a disc brake even with adapter if the fork isn’t designed for it. Or conducive to it! Most aren’t and will bend or break under load.
Drilling for a front brake is the better option, so long as it doesn’t harm the fork.

This may not be the frame for you.

estu87

i see, maybe i'll buy another fork then and keep the original.

son_of_clyde

One thing to consider if you go this route, is that the NJS fork most likely uses a 27mm diameter crown race while most "normal" forks use a 26.4mm race. If you want use an NJS headset, you'll need to shim the crown race when you install it on the replacement fork. I did this with some 0.3mm thick stainless steel stock, and it has worked well.

Couple of other brake options are a clamp on front brake caliper or an adapter bracket that allows for caliper installation.

Rolla

I'd just drill the original, since you like the paint. I mean, what are you ever going to do with the original, anyway?

Possible? Sure, but probably not likely. Here's an interesting thread from many years ago, in which njs frame weight (among other topics) is discussed:

https://www.bikeforums.net/track-cyc...framesets.html

estu87

what if i replace fork and the headset? will there any fitting problem?
dia compe bracket and the one screwed below fork is like 140 usd here. hard pass
paperweight? haha

did you drill yours? i think i read somewhere in this forum thst drilling undrilled fork may cause durability problem. if its ok maybe i'll drill mine too.

i've read that thread before. similar to op there, i'm looking for steel frame for durability, i'm not the type that often switch over stuff or anything. the only bike i have right now is entry lvl alloy hybrid bike, and just recently interested in FG. these past 2 weeks i watch many youtube vid about FG and now decided to build one

Bianchi pc

Hey - I have one of those Mr." Matsuda built njs framesets " - just sitting over there mocking me for not having gotten together all the parts to ride yet.

Built in 2014.

49cm seat tube & 54.5cm slightly sloping top tube tube Complete weight with Columbus max fork, Hatta deluxe super swan headset and dura ace 7710 bottom bracket .... 5.8 pounds. (NJS export)

...almost there!

son_of_clyde

I think the JIS headset (standard used on NJS headset) has a cup diameter of 30.0mm (27mm crown race), while an ISO standard headset will have a cup diameter of 30.2mm (26.4mm crown race), so you'd need to ream out the headtube for the ISO headset to fit.

estu87

too much hassle, drill it is

estu87

my fav football team color scheme! but isn't 49cm like small size? now i worry if the anchor will too big for me, it's 51,5 and i,m 170cm tall

IAmSam

My own roadified steel tarck frameset isn't drilled for brakes and I would never consider molesting it with a drill...but I loves me my front brake. If you are still undecided what to do about yours I suggest you ask anybody who suggested that you drill yours if they have ever done it themselves, to a nice bike.

I have been using this thingy for a few years and it works great...

https://www.tracksupermarket.com/bra...no-clamps.html

...but when I checked just now I was amazed at how expensive it has gotten. I think even though I got mine for a lot less awhile back - I'd still almost consider it worth it now.

Good luck - ride safe - post pics

Rolla

I never drank the NJS Kool-aid, opting instead for boring old Bianchis and Surlys when I rode fixed. But every drilled fork starts out undrilled, and people been putting holes in kierin forks for years; I'd just make sure someone who knows what they're doing does the actual work.

veganbikes

Not so much annoyed just frustrated not at you but in general when people post nothing and expect something. I guess maybe I was a bit harsh but you did state you were here just for your question and it just feels cold like we are just a search engine with live humans that you don't care about. Be active in the community or why spend all the time when google is way faster? We have fun here you should join in.

Reynolds vs Columbus, I doubt you would notice a difference. Maybe from vintage tubing to more modern tubing you might but again you would have to have the bikes set up the exact same built by the same hand (or at the very least copying the same geometry and using the same parts) and even then I think Bruce Gordon (RIP) built up some frames for that purpose for some bike magazine and the tester couldn't tell the difference. I have had or ridden steel frames from Columbus(CroMor and Zona), Reynolds (531, 725 and 853) and Tange (Infinity) as well as Surly 4130 Cromoly and some other random stuff I cannot remember and honestly all of them are quite nice and maybe if I had them all set up the same I could really find something but they just feel nice as steel does.

If it were me I would go with that Tsunami, it is more modern with probably more tire clearance, ability to mount brakes front and rear (natively), 27.2 seatpost for a ton of options. Sure the graphics are not my cuppa tea but I do like the raw steel and everything else seems right on it. Plus you will probably get it at a much better price on it vs. buying the hype of a used betting bike.

Some of those NJS bikes are kinda cool but in the end they aren't super special as they all have to conform to NJS rules which don't address quality just making sure everything is at the same level so it is a fair betting sport. Yes in some cases NJS stuff is of decent quality but really it is all about equality in sport which maybe would make UCI competition more interesting for the smaller less wealthy teams. In the end though unless the frame is way cheaper than the Tsunami, I think the Tsunami is the way to go.

JohnDThompson 

Many Japanese headsets are offered in both JIS (27.0mm) and ISO (26.4mm) crown race inner diameter for each model. BITD, we could order crown races separately from complete headsets. Don't know if this is still possible, but it's worth checking whether an ISO diameter crown race is available for the current headset.

79pmooney

Any chance the seller was talking pounds, not kilos?

Two comments - drilling fork crowns - been done many times but not all velodrome bikes have enough material there to do it safely. And trust me, that is not a place where you ever want to see a failure. Before you drill, get a second opinion. (I wish I had listened.)

And headsets - you can mix and match Tange headsets to get most combos of diameters and stack heights. I have in front of me right now an NJS Levin and a 30.2/26.4 Levin. I've mixed parts from the different Tange models to customize stack heights. (The $8 OEM replacement has no seals but also has very low top hardware that can be used with the very good Levin cups. My favorite bike has that combo.) The Tange headsets don't go forever but at $30US, nobody expects them to. They do go 7000 miles of hard riding easily with very little maintenance and adjustment. When steering gets funky, replace the caged bearings with loose. You have about 2000 more miles to find a replacement.

estu87

thanks for the feedback! wanting to reply immediately but limited to 5 post per day

so if i understand correctly the problem is the frame using 30mm cup and 27mm crown race. if want to replace the fork, what i need is a headset with 30mm diameter cup and 26.mm crown race right? then i found this custom-junkies.com/tange-seiki-passage-dx-1-threaded-headset-silver-or-black. Tange Seiki Passage DX classic 1 inch threaded headset with headset cups made of Dural aluminium and sealed ball bearings. Bearing cup outer diameter: 30.0mm (head tube inner diameter), fork cone / fork crown race inner diameter: 26.4mm, stack height: 37.5mm, weight: 101g. Available in black or silver. For installation and adjustment, headset wrenches with 32mm jaw width are required.
it should work right?
i live in 3rd world country that use metric, i doubt the seller inform me in pound lol. so you drilled your fork? did it fail and got u into accident?
i see, thanks for your suggestion but looks like i'll try to avoid drilling the fork
i'm not so much of a bike enthusiast before, i have a local brand entry level hybrid bike for buying groceries, and never cycling more than 10km in a single ride
just recently i interested in FG and decide to try to get one, then i learned i can build one my self from ground up. before, what i know is if i want to get a bike i just go to bike shop and pay for a fully built one lol. these past two weeks i've been looking for every information that i need my self, and i did found that njs frame set weigh around 2,5-3kg but that is from a web-store and a web article, not from a person that own one. and knowing that njs is made by different builder i thought they would use different material therefore different weight, or my seller just simply marketing a hi ten steel with njs stickers lol. to put it simply, i just need confirmation that the frame made with a real columbus tubing.

and why i want a columbus tubing? because i read it is the highest quality steel available from wabi website, please forgive my naivety, total noob here lol. ideally i'd like to get frame from wabi but it would cost double the price with tax and shipping. what turn me off from the tsunami is it came with carbon fork, and where i live the road is not all smooth and have many speed bump not to mention i often need to cross a railroad crossing so i fear it wouldn't last long. thats why i want my bike to built so it can survive even the WW3

about the njs hype. trust me, i dont really care if it has a stamp or not, if there is local frame maker in my country that can build a frame besides using hi-ten steel i prefer to get custom one my self. i like the color and vintage style frame with lug. it got some chipped paint from aging, maybe i need to repaint it in 1-2 years later, beside one little dent everything looks fine. i will bring it to LBS for inspection once it fully assembled. btw parts that i will install in this frame is not some fancy branded parts, just random parts as long as its functioning and durable, maybe njs purist will see it as heresy but hey, to each their own.

79pmooney

My advice on the headset is to wait until you have the frame and fork in hand, measure them with a micrometer, then get a headset to match. My headset marked NJS has 30.0 and 27 stamped on the box.

My fork failure wasn't from the brake drilling but happened 1/2" away. Trust me, you never want to see a failure in that area.

son_of_clyde

If nothing else, installing a 0.3mm thick shim with the 27mm race/26.4mm fork is pretty simple. I used this: https://www.mcmaster.com/2283A12/ (not sure about international shipping), and have had absolutely no problems in ~3000 miles so far. Just cut it to proper size, wrap it around the steerer tube where the crown race is installed, and install the race.

Regarding drilling, my Anchor fork only has 12mm of material below the crown race, so that would only leave 3mm of material below a 6mm hole (assuming it's centered). I would not be comfortable with that.

JohnDThompson 

Yes, if you want to replace the entire headset. Or, you could mill the head tube and fork crown race seat to ISO dimensions (30.2mm head tube ID; 26.4mm crown race seat) and install an ISO-spec headset. Or, simply replace the crown race with a compatible ISO diameter crown race, leaving the rest of the headset intact.


Yes, according to the description, it is already a hybrid of JIS and ISO dimensions. The head tube pressed fittings are JIS spec, while the crown race is ISO spec. It should work, provided that the stack height is the same or smaller than the current headset stack height. If it is taller than your present headset, you'll likely have a problem getting sufficient thread engagement for the locknut.

veganbikes

For Wabi their highest end bike probably uses Columbus tubing but in the end similar level quality tubing from Reynolds or Tange or VariWall or KVA or one of the others is going to be similar. I think Columbus has certainly gotten some extra hype from MashSF being heavily intertwined with them and Cinelli (who are now part of the same company) and certainly is great quality tubing and was used by many pros on many fine Italian bikes but plenty of bikes with other tubing that is also of quality. No need to worry on that front though I don't know all the various eccentricities of all the tubing yet myself or just haven't committed a lot of it to memory I know the basics but in the end the geometry will play probably the bigger roll than tubing assuming the tubing is of decent known quality.

A lugged frame is nice but in the end I think that other one is more practical and modern for what you are doing. If I was racing Keirin or at least on a track the NJS bike might be just the ticket but for urban use having brakes and such are a bit more useful to me than a pure race bike can provide.

I build parts bikes all the time but I have a good parts bin and friends with parts bins so I can do fairly well, though don't have a ton of single speed or fixed gear stuff as that usually goes on the frame and doesn't really come off unless I need to replace which so far isn't the case.