scroungetech

Hi All,
Well, I think I may have gone down the gram weenie rabbit hole a bit today. It's been pouring rain all day here in the NE US, and I'm nursing a sore shoulder, so I got out the digital scale (never been used for anything illegal, I swear!) and graph paper and dove into summer trip prep & planning.

My previous total weight for tent, sleeping bag, pad and all related bits like stakes, poles, stuff sacks, groundsheet was about 12.5 pounds. My old cooking setup added 2.5 pounds. In my defense I learned my backpacking style in the late 1980's and early 1990's, from authors who were writing in the 70's, and back then the recommended max weight to carry -on your shoulders, not panniers - was up around 50 to 60 pounds-ish.

After a year or three of trying to keep weight in mind as I replaced a few things, I figured today would be a good time to add it all up.

New weight total of above-noted items comes in at 5.9 pounds, or less than half of the old weight. Throw in entire cooking system less fuel, and a pair of carradice super c waxed canvas rear panniers, and the total is at 11.8 pounds. And I don't feel like I had to spend too exorbitantly to drop the weight, either. Rough estimate of about $500, but spread out over 3 years. Biggest purchases were Mountain Laurel Designs Spirit Quilt 28, and Six Moon Designs Skyscape Scout Tent. Cooking setup dropped from 40oz to 20oz by retiring the brass Svea stove & stainless steel pots, and going to a titanium pot and Trangia burner with diy stand & wind screen, and Reflectix cozies to conserve fuel. Stuff still to be added: food, water, stove fuel, tool/repair/pump/tubes kit.

I did figure out the clothes list for any kind of east coast 3 season road-riding, for trips of 3 days to 2 weeks, and it all came in at 7.5 pounds total, which sounds good to me. Shoved all of the above into panniers, and still have about 60% free space. Plenty of room remaining. Too much, really, as in I might be tempted to fill it. And having enough leftover space for an entire 30 pack of Pabst Blue Ribbon cans is definitely not necessary, recommended, insurable, or ever meant to be tried at home, let alone while taking the lane in urban rush hour traffic...

I know touring and weight-weenie-ing are often considered to be mutually exclusive. Hence the lack of an item-by-item list of old vs new, with weights quantified in total number of quarks and neutrinos when measured at absolute zero temperature! I'm going for more available capacity to carry foods that require some cooking more than just cold food/boil in bag meals, and I also see myself adding a few less-than-essential items, like a 20 oz 9x12 foot tarp for group dining in bad weather that can be used as a huge front porch for the tent, and a rather extensive tools & parts kit (cables, rack repair, gear repair, sewing, etc) that can cover more than just the fasteners/components on my own bike. If you're reading this and you want more specifics, ask and ye shall receive. And if you're fed up with this weirdo's ranting, well, that's all for now...

~scroungetech

bradtx

They aren't exclusive parameters in my book. Nobody wants a bike heavier than necessary nor to pack too much into their cargo.

Brad

Salamandrine 

Makes sense to me to get a little gram weenie once in a while. Most people are pretty careful with how they pack for backpacking, so I don't get the everything + the kitchen sink attitude that a lot of people have toward bike camping.

I think your approach of paying attention to weight but not getting all nutsy about it is a good one. It's pretty easy IMO to get packed weight down to 15-20lbs or less without doing anything extreme, but just being a little sensible and careful. I've never camped in the east, and I'm sure the requirements are a little different, but that sounds like a good set up to me.

I'm not sure I'd take a trangia on a 3 day trip, as my cannister Optimus crux and cook kit is so easy and fast by comparison. Makes a nice small package, but of course it's not worth it if you will need more than one or maybe two cannisters.

robow

So may I ask, including your panniers/bags and all gear within, but not including food nor water, what do you estimate will be your total weight carried?

Squeezebox

Doesn't sound to me like the OP is being a gram wennie, but an oz and 1/2 lb weenie. Grams add up kinda slow, 1/2 lbs add up fast. Bivy sacks and no rain gear are in my opinion are stupid light. Don't do anything dangerous. Like bring a sleeping system for average temp for the area, when you'll likely hit 20* lower than that. Same for clothes.
But bringing 4 set of cycling clothes and 4 set of street clothes is crazy heavy.
Sounds like the OP has the right idea, Pack what you think you need, when you realize you don't need it this week, send it home.
Travel light, travel fast, travel comfortable!!!

scroungetech

Well, lets see: 11.8 pounds for 54 total-liter pair (not quad) of panniers with all shelter, sleeping & cooking gear. Sleeping quilt in dry sack and pad get strapped to top of front rack. Add 7.5 for all clothes good for all temps from 20 degree night time lows thru 100+ degrees daytime highs (Fahrenheit), including rain gear. That's 19.3. Tool/puncture/all-gear-repair kit is 4 pounds including pump and 2 tubes. That includes a bunch of zip ties, rack bolts, 2 tubes, patch kit, full set of replacement cables, canti straddle cables & yokes, mini clippers for cutting cables, extra M5 washers, and a wrench for every fastener, all rolled up in a tool wrap I sewed up. Then add a maximum worst case 4 oz/day of denatured alcohol for the trangia burner. Then water, I carry 1 bottle at 20 oz, and 1 bottle at 48 oz capacity that will never need to be kept more than half full on road rides with available services. Then add in the ever changing wild card: food.

So, to add it all up for a 3 days-of-stove-fuel trip: 26.05 pounds plus food. Feel free to check my math. I'm off the clock and left my slide rule in my toolbox at work!

Caveat: I also have a 23 liter capacity Carradice super C saddle bag with bagman expedition support, a Revelate Gas Tank bag, and a small Jandd upper-main-triangle frame bag. The saddle bag holds stuff I might need during a ride, like rain gear & wallet/phone. The gas tank bag carries sunglasses or clear safety specs for night time riding & not much else. The Jandd bag carries lunch/snacks. I have been commuting with these 3 bags for quite some time, and I know I should add those on, but they're a PITA to detach just to weigh, and I've been riding with them for long enough that I consider them part of the base weight of the bike itself, which is an interesting, and patently false re-definition of my own creation... I also didn't weigh the empty water bottles. If I were to ballpark all those, add another 3 pounds. So about 30 pounds plus food. And between dry shelf stable reconstituted stuff that can be found at normal grocery stores, and 5 years of being a cheap-a$$ beans-and-rice (now-former) vegan, I think I can keep food to 4 pounds a day if eating high on the hog, and 2.5 pounds if not. This includes lots of fresh veggies for making curries and lentil dishes with dry noodles and TVP and hot sauce. So for the aforementioned 3 day trip, eating high on the hog, I'd add 12 pounds to the above 30 to arrive at 42. That sounds like a lot to me, compared to modern lighter-weight backpackers, but they don't have pannier attachment hardware or bike repair supplies to take into account. Though neither can they do 75+ mile days when needed/desired...And I haven't even taken into account Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle...!

And, add on what the hiker-author Colin Fletcher referred to as FSO or from-skin-out; ie, what will I be wearing when I begin a tour. The clothes I'm wearing, helmet, sunglasses, shoes, fingerless gloves, multi-tool(s) on belt, etc.. None of the above takes FSO into account, just FYI.

seeker333

Take a look at Ortlieb City Roller rear panniers, the economy version of Back Roller classics - 40L capacity for 1520g, which is apparently a 700g weight reduction from Carradice Super C 54l panniers. They're a little cheaper overseas, and if you also buy Brooks/Tubus/etc at the same time to dilute the shipping/bank currency conversion fees you can save quite a bit outfitting a touring bike.

https://www.rosebikes.com/article/or...ler/aid:309762

https://www.modernbike.com/ortlieb-ba...ir---red-black

https://www.ortlieb.com/wp-content/t.../radtasche.pdf

Back Roller Classic vs Back Roller City:

https://www.bikeforums.net/touring/99...l#post18446974

Weight-wise Trangia makes sense in the short term. My Snow Peak giga stove weighs 3.5oz, the smallest 110g fuel canister is an additional 7.4 oz, total 10.9oz.

A Trangia mini stove is 4.5oz, filled with 3 oz ethanol would weigh 7.5oz, DIY potstand/windscreen adds 1.5oz for a 9oz total, which would yield 3-6 boils (enough for a 3 day outing). The Trangia mini is one of the heavier alcohol stoves, as there are lots of cat food can design DIY stoves that weigh only 1-1.5 oz.

Short term (3 day outing) an alcohol burner could save 2-5oz over the lightest canister stoves, which is not a lot of weight but 5oz is a nearly 50% reduction in the weight of the Snow Peak or similar lightweight canister stove rig. That's hundreds of grams saved...

Squeezebox

Go to White Blaze the hikers know a lot more than what is presented here.

scroungetech

I have a set of Ortlieb backroller classics, which have fallen out of favor with me. Partially because they make the handling of my bike really jittery and squirrely, maybe due to height of center of gravity. I also like the waxed canvas because I could patch it with needle and thread if needed, and because it breathes. Having used the Ortliebs for grocery store runs on hot days, it seems to me that any moisture introduced gets cooked up sauna-style and slightly saturates everything else.

Also, I have built about 6 different soda-can stoves designs, 3 or 4 attempts to fine tune each design (check out Tetkoba's designs on youtube) and yes, they're _much_ lighter. Like 90% lighter. But I have not encountered a user-friendly simmer control feature like the simmer ring on the trangia. That ability to simmer well justifies the heavier trangia to me above all else. I want to do more than just boil. There is the PackaFeather brand FeatherFire stove that looks to include a simmer control feature that gets many good testimonials, but has a bunch of delicate moving parts in order to accomplish that...

I appreciate your comments and helpfulness, though. Sorry to shoot down your ideas, they're good ones in certain circumstances, and may be useful to other readers here. So thanks again seeker33! I'm still amazed that this internet contraption unites otherwise solitary basement workshop nerds such as myself and all of y'all in our shared weirdnesses! Just gotta find me a Jetson's car that folds into a suitcase and it will finally be the future for real!

fietsbob

not Sure ... riding in the rain ... or just thinking of riding in the rain or
Or, Thinking while inside thinking about riding just when It's not raining?



Ortlieb has joined the bike packing gear market so No rack get everything to go in that seat bag . & maybe a Handlebar bag or
their cross bar dry bag.
https://www.bikepacking.com/gear/ortl...t-pack-review/
eat out , or Picnic , stay in Hostels or Motels .

Doug64

Why would the Ortlieb panniers mount higher than the Carradice panniers?

Your experience with the Ortlieb backrollers differs from mine. I've used them for 10 years on a lot of tours, and for grocery hauling. We get a lot of rain here, and I've never experience the odors, mold, or other problems associated with waterproof panniers.

I also don't agree with the premise that Carradice, or any non-waterproof panniers breathe. If they are waxed or treated enough on the outside to keep moisture out they do the same job of keeping moisture inside the bags. Once the contents of any pannier gets wet, they are not going to dry while inside the pannier.

The Ortlieb panniers are incredibly tough. My wife and I have toured with ours, she uses the Packer Plus series, for over 16,000 miles without a problem. Any tear, if one should occur, could be fixed with duct tape to finish out the tour. IMO there is more potential for moisture related problems with canvas panniers because the fabric itself can absorb moisture if the wax treatment is inadequate.

Having said all that, I realize that a lot of folks like Carradice products, and a personal preference.

This abrasion was the result of a high speed encounter of my front pannier with a tall curb. The bag is still waterproof.

scroungetech

Thanks Doug64! I appreciate you sharing your perspective. I think the mounting points re: Ortlieb vs Carradice are at the same height, but the bottom of the bag is further down on the Carradice's. And I readily note that bike handling is ultimately a subjective experience. Low or high racks are still high for me, as I'm on a 23" seat tube, 24" top tube, 17.75" chain stays to fit my 6'4" long-limbed self. I'm also aware that I've stoked the fires of the ongoing "which brand of pannier is best" discussion. I like my Ortlieb's under certain circumstances: less than 10 pounds per bag, mounted up front on low rider racks. And yes, they're very durable, but there is a cave man lurking in the far-rear regions of my reptilian brain centers that understands canvas more than vinyl truck tarp material. I'll also admit to a wee bit of a form over function factor for me: I'm a self-admitted "Bob-ish" cyclist, ie I prefer the retro-grouchiness aesthetic of the bridgestone owner's bunch, which makes such materials as wool, canvas, steel and leather tug at my heart strings in a way that vinyl, nylon, and aluminum never will for me. And the first step is admitting it, so I hear...

Doug64

I hear you. I think there are organizations similar to AA for just that problem. If you happen to find one, would you please let me know? Dang rainy days

scroungetech

Thanks fietsbob! I think I've perhaps seen you post on the iBob google group, but forgive me if I am mistaken. As a regular camper since age 7, who rabidly consumed all of the late-winter/early-spring mailings of gear catalogs, since the days when Campmor only existed in black & white newsprint pre-internet form, I have watched with interest at the developments in bikepacking vs. bike touring accoutrements. I can see the value of the bikepacking gear-carriage arrangements on a full suspension bike with conundrums apparent re: rack mounting options. But I'm full bore onto the touring gear path, and IMHO too late to make a total switch to a different style of cargo mounting. I did enter a contest to win a full complement of Revelate and Big Agnes bikepacking gear, so if the fates smile upon me, perhaps anything is possible. And regarding your "eat out, stay hotels/motels" sentiment... In my mind I like the idea of a somewhat slower pace that involves cooking cheaper bulk foods and sleeping in free settings. I'm not going to get into what those free settings may or may not consist of, as I don't want to start any heated debates. The entire purpose of my current occupational training program is to gain the necessary skills to be able to work as few cold months as possible and tour through the warm months. The longer I can stretch the budget, the further I'll be able to go, and preferably with very little set itinerary or cue sheets other than a return date. Hence the emphasis on cooking and camping vs restaurants and modern accommodations.

luker

Anyone have experience with Arkel Dry-Lites? ...407 grams for 32 liters of waterproof storage...

Salamandrine 

It is a rainy day lol. Good work on those numbers!! I shall keep this under advisement. I needed an excuse to get another Trangia anyway, as I lost my last one about 10 years ago. I am aware of all the DIY alcohol stove designs, but I like the Trangia because you can adjust the heat and keep enough fuel for a couple boils inside it. I suspect I'd still grab my Optimus crux for a weekender in most cases just for the convenience factor.

Happy Feet

The human arm weighs about 5% of ones body weight. For a 150lb rider that is 8lb's.
You do not need two arms to ride a bike.
Come on, get creative!

fietsbob

Read? https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/...page_id=134003

hammock .. tight down mummy bag, beer-can alcohol stove.

I didnt do that .. carried a petrol stove I rarely used.. comfy bag and tent. etc..

read of the co owner of a Brompton dealership using that bike, their touring bag is pretty light, empty

and a Carradice Trad saddle bag .. rode PDX to SFO.

Yan 

I'm very careful with weight when backpacking, but bike touring is my chance to camp in luxury! I take as many unnecessary items as possible. Radio, candle lantern, tablet, extra changes of clothing, large camera with second lens, you name it. I rarely bike over 140km in a day, usually between 110 and 125km. How much is 10 extra pounds going to slow me down over that distance? Half an hour? Who cares.

Squeezebox

For backpacking I'm considering changing out my tent and back pack an a few smaller things, to save 3-4 lbs Could cost close to $1K. Worth it for backpacking? Probably yes! For bicycle touring? Heck no!! I even bought a fold up chair, 1 1/2 lb, I might bring on tour. But it's still not car camping.
The lighter your gear load the more comfortable you will be on a bicycle.

scroungetech

Extreme body modification is a little more creative than I'm prepared for. However here are some small creative projects I've instituted. My everyday wallet weighs about 4 oz. My DIY mostly tyvek w a little duct tape travel wallet = 0.5 oz. My tent footprint also in tyvek is about 4oz as opposed to a nylon version at about 8oz. Hmmm, lets see: my 300 helium balloons tied to my handlebars means I'm actually floating 1 half inch above the ground at all times....!

KC8QVO

Good discussion here on panniers and all too. I came over to biking from backpacking also. My riding buddy did the opposite - he had been doing a lot of mini bike tours over the years, I suppose more along the credit card touring route staying in hotels, but they drove between destinations. He got out and did some pretty neat big trips here in the past few years. In his training he knew I was in to backpacking so we went on a few trips so he could get used to his gear, do a different activity, and get some exercise in. Good times.

In any event, over New Years we spent 4 days in the appalachian mountains. We hiked in and base camped. I thought it would be a good opportunity to do some gear testing. Since we weren't moving each day it was a perfect opportunity. I decided to bring my set of gear that I like using also - a Warbonnet hammock with a Hammock Gear 20deg underquilt (with their highest level of over-stuffing offered) and 0deg down sleeping bag. This way if my "experiments" didn't work I wasn't out there hosed for the rest of the trip. I was expecting below freezing temps.

The other set of gear I brought was my Mountain Hardwear Hammerhead 2 tent, a synthetic warmer weather bag, and some of those SOL emergency bivys. I bought one that is supposed to be insulated and waterproof that I wanted to try with my sleeping bag inside to see how much warmth it would add. The other bivy was the basic small emergency one. I knew I had a ton of gear, and for the few hours hike in I wasn't worried about it so I didn't even bother weighing it.

When we were done with the trip and back at my truck on the last day I weighed everything as it came off the pack. I was just under 100lbs. Add food and water and it was well over the triple digit mark. I had two stoves too - Simmerlite white gas and a Giga Power canister. So this was the complete opposite type of trip than "gram weenie" stye

After the first night I switched to the hammock for the remaining time. The emergency bivy was a bad idea - it trapped so much moisture it was awful. I had a hard some sleeping on the ground also. The hammock is much more comfortable. Its hard to go back to ground dwelling after hanging for years. It was good to get my tent out again, though.

scroungetech

I tried the hammock thing- Warbonnet Blackbird XLC- and just can't seem to fall asleep in it. Great for lazy afternoons in the yard, though. I was also concerned about what I would do if unable to find 2 trees of the right distance apart, or encountering Park Rangers who might not want stuff tied to trees... So I went back to my ground dweller set up and will probably sell off the hammock setup.

BigAura

My snowpeak litemax ti stove weighs 2oz. and needs a windscreen only when its windy. No potstand.

My pepsi can stove weighs 1oz. and always needs a potstand & windscreen.

The efficiency and ease of use of a canister makes it far superior. Add in safety on the canister side and its hard to beat!

The only time I would consider an alcohol stove would be an overnight backpack trip.

BigAura

Although this is true for backpacking, it's not necessarily true for bicycle touring because bicycles have wheels & gears!

Gears: Gear down and you can turn extra weight into time.

Wheels: Another difference is on a bicycle you have the mechanical advantage of the wheels which give you a 3-5X efficiency over walking. So an extra 2oz backpacking is equal to 1/2 lb touring.

Gravity: The bicycle bares the gravitational forces when touring vs. your body fights gravity when backpacking --> HUGE difference!

Lighter is easier but NOT nearly to the extent that it matters in backpacking. As far as comfort is concerned you spend more time off your bike while touring so being a weenie might not be as great as you think!