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Titanium rear derailleur hanger

Old 05-26-22, 05:38 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Litespud
Oh boy....
Can you give me the official beng1 verdict on carbon fiber? I see a lot of those racer types using it, and now even ordinary people (racer wannabees!) are adopting it! Damn' plastic frippery, if you ask me....
I agree carbon-fiber is "frippery". Every now and then the manufacturers of consumer goods have to have something new to market to the public so they can get them to buy everything all over again, and most of the time there was nothing wrong with the previous generation of goods, in fact many older consumer goods are much better in many ways than current items. As time goes on consumer goods are being made that do more for those who made them than for those who buy them.

A friend of mine got a second-hand carbon-fiber road frame for pocket-change because it was cracked by the bottom-bracket. I told him to JB-weld it and try and have some fun with it, but he is not that adventurous. I think the carbon-fiber bikes are throw-away items, you will not see fifty and sixty year old carbon fiber vintage road bikes in the future that can be ridden like fifty and sixty year-old steel bikes can be ridden today as the day they were made.

I believe the only perfect bicycle frame material known is steel. The rest are compromises, jewelry or marketing tools.
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Old 05-26-22, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Rdmonster69
Ti has many attributes in many applications that make it superior to steel, aluminum or carbon fibre. !
Then you should have no problem listing a few of those attributes for us.......
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Old 05-26-22, 05:52 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by beng1
I agree carbon-fiber is "frippery". Every now and then the manufacturers of consumer goods have to have something new to market to the public so they can get them to buy everything all over again, and most of the time there was nothing wrong with the previous generation of goods, in fact many older consumer goods are much better in many ways than current items. As time goes on consumer goods are being made that do more for those who made them than for those who buy them.

A friend of mine got a second-hand carbon-fiber road frame for pocket-change because it was cracked by the bottom-bracket. I told him to JB-weld it and try and have some fun with it, but he is not that adventurous. I think the carbon-fiber bikes are throw-away items, you will not see fifty and sixty year old carbon fiber vintage road bikes in the future that can be ridden like fifty and sixty year-old steel bikes can be ridden today as the day they were made.

I believe the only perfect bicycle frame material known is steel. The rest are compromises, jewelry or marketing tools.
uh oh
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Old 05-26-22, 10:43 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by beng1
I agree carbon-fiber is "frippery". Every now and then the manufacturers of consumer goods have to have something new to market to the public so they can get them to buy everything all over again, and most of the time there was nothing wrong with the previous generation of goods, in fact many older consumer goods are much better in many ways than current items. As time goes on consumer goods are being made that do more for those who made them than for those who buy them.

A friend of mine got a second-hand carbon-fiber road frame for pocket-change because it was cracked by the bottom-bracket. I told him to JB-weld it and try and have some fun with it, but he is not that adventurous. I think the carbon-fiber bikes are throw-away items, you will not see fifty and sixty year old carbon fiber vintage road bikes in the future that can be ridden like fifty and sixty year-old steel bikes can be ridden today as the day they were made.

I believe the only perfect bicycle frame material known is steel. The rest are compromises, jewelry or marketing tools.
I agree with you that steel is a wonderful material, but the only perfect material? Only if you consider a narrow set of criteria, which, for you, seems to comprise cost, longevity, repairability by the backyard mechanic, and maybe "tradition". But there are many other criteria that should be considered:
Weight - Ti and CF certainly trump steel here - Al also, I imagine. You can certainly make light steel frames, but I think to rival the other materials weight wise, you're looking at ever more exotic and expensive thin-walled steel tubing, at which point longevity might become an issue, and repair becomes more of a specialist enterprise - not everyone can successfully weld thin steel. From your earlier posts, you seem to dismiss weight as something that should only matter to professionals, but weight matters, period. Why would I want to haul a boat anchor up a hill?
Ride quality - although I'm a big Ti fan, I'm skeptical about the "magic Ti ride" - frame geometry and tires easily trump frame material in determining ride characteristics. I don't see steel as a material having any more "magical" ride properties as Ti.
Flex - certainly Ti as a material is less stiff then steel, but the stiffness of the material is again trumped by tube diameter and frame design - you might have had a point about the flexiness of Ti as a negative if all frames were built identically, but obviously they're not
Corrosion resistance - no contest - steel is the most sensitive of the lot, although I think this is more of an academic weakness. For a steel frame to suffer fatal rusting, it would have to be seriously abused and/or stored outside. No steel frame of mine has suffered more than slight surface rust at paint chips, and I certainly didn't baby any of them. Still, not having to worry about the finish of a bare Ti frame is very convenient.
Longevity - Steel is real, but I think so is titanium. Both materials have excellent fatigue resistance, Ti has better corrosion resistance - but barring trauma or abuse, a well-made steel or Ti frame should outlive its owner. Of course, I can take a scotchbrite pad to my 22-year-old ~70,000-mile Ti frame and have it looking literally like it just left the factory - can't do that with painted steel. Yes, there are rideable 50-60-year-old steel frames out there, but honestly, they're sh1te: (i) they weigh a ton, and (ii) they're less compatible with modern componentry that has made cycling so much safer and more efficient over the decades. By way of comparison, I have a 50-year-old car that's a blast to drive and fun to tinker with, but by almost every objective measure, the cheapest modern Korean econobox is a faster, safer, more reliable and more comfortable car. "Longevity" isn't the be-all and end-all - sometimes things just need to move aside and let progress have its day. At this point, we don't know about the longevity of CF (again, barring accidents or trauma) - there's no reason to believe that a quality CF frame, looked after, won't last for decades - we just don't know yet.
Cost - getting harder to gauge - CF is getting cheaper - I imagine Ti is also. Certainly cheap steel is out there, but if you want to compete with good CF or Ti in terms of weight and performance, steel is becoming boutique and expensive.
The "X" factor/"tradition" - a nice steel frame is a thing of beauty - it's traditional, it rides well - if I could pick any frame, cost no object, it'd probably be a Battaglin Portofino or Colnago Master - both steel. But cost is usually a factor, and these puppies ain't cheap.

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Old 05-27-22, 09:32 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by beng1
Then you should have no problem listing a few of those attributes for us.......
Ugh ...if I must.

Lighter than steel and far more corrosion resistant.
More corrosion resistant than Aluminum.
More durable in most applications than carbon fiber.
More bio compatible for medical implants than surgical stainless.
Far less fatigue failures than aluminum or steel making it ideal for components that face repeated stress
Strong as steel at 40% of the weight (depending on the alloy)
More erosion/cavitation resistant than steel
can flex and bend quite easily in certain applications making it less likely to crack or break.

Listen .... I never said Ti was the best material for bike frames. You seem to be of the mind that steel is the only thing that should be used for bike frames. Fine I disagree. I have had steel, Ti , Carbon and Aluminum. They all work fine for me. I also tried to stick to answering the OPs post and not crapping all over everyone else's thoughts on different frame materials. Maybe make your own thread about "steel is real" or some such drivel. Treat this thread like an A to B thread and C your way out of it.
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Old 05-27-22, 10:25 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Rdmonster69
Ugh ...if I must.

Lighter than steel and far more corrosion resistant.
More corrosion resistant than Aluminum.
More durable in most applications than carbon fiber.
More bio compatible for medical implants than surgical stainless.
Far less fatigue failures than aluminum or steel making it ideal for components that face repeated stress
Strong as steel at 40% of the weight (depending on the alloy)
More erosion/cavitation resistant than steel
can flex and bend quite easily in certain applications making it less likely to crack or break.

Listen .... I never said Ti was the best material for bike frames. You seem to be of the mind that steel is the only thing that should be used for bike frames. Fine I disagree. I have had steel, Ti , Carbon and Aluminum. They all work fine for me. I also tried to stick to answering the OPs post and not crapping all over everyone else's thoughts on different frame materials. Maybe make your own thread about "steel is real" or some such drivel. Treat this thread like an A to B thread and C your way out of it.
I HAVE steel, Ti, Carbon, and aluminum bikes. Each of them has its good and bad points. Steel is nice, but it's heavy. Titanium is like steel, but lighter, and sadly way more expensive. CF is lighter still, and can be made into many different shapes, but it gets more expensive the lighter it gets. Aluminum is lighter, generally cheaper, but is more prone to fatigue failure. So, steel is an excellent material for building bikes. Perhaps the best COMPROMISE material. But the BEST? No. That's nonsensical. You can build a stiff or floppy bike out of any of them. You can build a heavy bike out of any of them, but how light you can make a bike from each has its limits. CF probably makes the lightest, then Ti or Aluminum, then steel. I mean, for cripes sake, Specialized sells a CF bike - with disc brakes - that weighs 13 lbs and is spec'ed for riders up to 125 kg. Sure, it's ungodly expensive. But would you ride a 13 lb steel bike if you even weighed 90 kg?
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Old 05-27-22, 09:16 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Rdmonster69
Ugh ...if I must.
Lighter than steel and far more corrosion resistant.
More corrosion resistant than Aluminum.
More durable in most applications than carbon fiber.
More bio compatible for medical implants than surgical stainless.
Far less fatigue failures than aluminum or steel making it ideal for components that face repeated stress
Strong as steel at 40% of the weight (depending on the alloy)
More erosion/cavitation resistant than steel
can flex and bend quite easily in certain applications making it less likely to crack or break.
None of those addresses the question the person who started the thread asked about derailleur hangers, and they are weak at best period. Titanium is hard and expensive to repair, Steel is easy and cheap to repair. So unless you can get a Titanium frame with a replaceable derailleur hanger, Steel wins. Again, titanium is for the pro, or those who are looking for jewelry, not a bicycle.
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Old 05-27-22, 09:19 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Rdmonster69
I can't imagine what it would take to bend the DR hanger on my Litespeed. That thing is pretty darn thick to start with and Ti is tough stuff.
The same type of accident that would destroy the hanger on a steel frame would also destroy the hanger on a titanium frame. Steel is "tough stuff" too. How does it feel to have your imagination expanded?
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Old 05-27-22, 09:57 PM
  #34  
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I have three Ritchey steel frames and three Lynskey titanium frames. The Ritchey frames all have fixed hangers, while the Lynskey frames all have replaceable hangers. None have been a problem.
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Old 05-27-22, 11:21 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by beng1
None of those addresses the question the person who started the thread asked about derailleur hangers, and they are weak at best period. Titanium is hard and expensive to repair, Steel is easy and cheap to repair. So unless you can get a Titanium frame with a replaceable derailleur hanger, Steel wins. Again, titanium is for the pro, or those who are looking for jewelry, not a bicycle.
Like every Litespeed and Lynskey -and I will assume others - have been for a long time? What's this about titanium bikes not having replaceable hangers? Is it an actual current thing?
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Old 05-28-22, 07:08 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by beng1
None of those addresses the question the person who started the thread asked about derailleur hangers, and they are weak at best period. Titanium is hard and expensive to repair, Steel is easy and cheap to repair. So unless you can get a Titanium frame with a replaceable derailleur hanger, Steel wins. Again, titanium is for the pro, or those who are looking for jewelry, not a bicycle.
Dude, we're rwo pages into the thread and the OPs question has been answered. Several times.

"Titanium is for the pro"? What silly elitist hogwash. If something about titanium is useful for "the pro", it's also useful for the amateur.

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Old 05-28-22, 08:05 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by genejockey
Dude, we're rwo pages into the thread and the OPs question has been answered. Several times.
"Titanium is for the pro"? What silly elitist hogwash. If something about titanium is useful for "the pro", it's also useful for the amateur.
I said it is for the pro or it is jewelry. Which means if you are a pro then a titanium bike might actually be worth the cost, and if you are not a pro then you are not buying it for any practical reason, but as jewelry for your ego. But I guess the only way you could attack what I said was to alter what I said, so no gold star on your forehead today.............
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Old 05-28-22, 08:25 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by beng1
I said it is for the pro or it is jewelry. Which means if you are a pro then a titanium bike might actually be worth the cost, and if you are not a pro then you are not buying it for any practical reason, but as jewelry for your ego. But I guess the only way you could attack what I said was to alter what I said, so no gold star on your forehead today.............
Again, and I'll speak slowly, so you'll understand: If Titanium has some property that makes it useful for a pro, that property does not disappear under an amateur. If a bike can be made with similar stiffness and ride quality, but significantly lighter, then that is not "not....for any practical reason", because lighter IS a practical reason. If it weren't, nobody would have bothered moving beyond gaspipe for frames.
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Old 05-30-22, 08:45 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by genejockey
because lighter IS a practical reason. If it weren't, nobody would have bothered moving beyond gaspipe for frames.
Lighter is only practical if it is cost efficient, and titanium is not. Especially if the person who started this thread crashes or chain-sucks his hanger off the bike and has to find someone to competently repair it. In most cities in the USA there is not going to be anyone that will be able to do it, which means driving or shipping the frame far away and ending up maybe with as much as you paid for the frame to repair it. Whereas most any city in the USA is going to have a competent steel fabricator. A pro will not even have to pay for his titanium frame, and if it is crashed it will not cost him anything to replace it. Saying that a non-pro will benefit from titanium frames like a pro getting their bikes for free and making tons of cash for riding because the frame is a little lighter is nonsense no matter how slow or fast you say it. So go pour yourself a nice big cup of DUH.
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Old 05-30-22, 09:52 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by beng1
Lighter is only practical if it is cost efficient, and titanium is not. Especially if the person who started this thread crashes or chain-sucks his hanger off the bike and has to find someone to competently repair it. In most cities in the USA there is not going to be anyone that will be able to do it, which means driving or shipping the frame far away and ending up maybe with as much as you paid for the frame to repair it. Whereas most any city in the USA is going to have a competent steel fabricator. A pro will not even have to pay for his titanium frame, and if it is crashed it will not cost him anything to replace it. Saying that a non-pro will benefit from titanium frames like a pro getting their bikes for free and making tons of cash for riding because the frame is a little lighter is nonsense no matter how slow or fast you say it. So go pour yourself a nice big cup of DUH.
So far, nobody on this thread who has had a titanium frame has mentioned breaking their hanger off, so it seems ludicrous to harp on that as the reason steel is superior. Just because YOU can't adjust a derailleur doesn't mean NOBODY can.
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Old 05-31-22, 12:19 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by beng1
Lighter is only practical if it is cost efficient, and titanium is not. Especially if the person who started this thread crashes or chain-sucks his hanger off the bike and has to find someone to competently repair it. In most cities in the USA there is not going to be anyone that will be able to do it, which means driving or shipping the frame far away and ending up maybe with as much as you paid for the frame to repair it. Whereas most any city in the USA is going to have a competent steel fabricator. A pro will not even have to pay for his titanium frame, and if it is crashed it will not cost him anything to replace it. Saying that a non-pro will benefit from titanium frames like a pro getting their bikes for free and making tons of cash for riding because the frame is a little lighter is nonsense no matter how slow or fast you say it. So go pour yourself a nice big cup of DUH.
I think you mean cost effective, not cost efficient. A common error by those who don't understand the terms.

As for your OPINION that there's no reason for a mere enthusiast to have a titanium bike other than ego, jewelry, whatever. I bow to your superior knowledge and values and will be ashamed of my own in the future.

It's refreshing though - we haven't been entertained by an arrogant steel devotee for a while. Thanks for that.

A

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Old 05-31-22, 08:38 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by beng1
The same type of accident that would destroy the hanger on a steel frame would also destroy the hanger on a titanium frame. Steel is "tough stuff" too. How does it feel to have your imagination expanded?
You have certainly not expanded my imagination or anything close to it. You seem to be utterly unable to understand the concept of people buying things because they like it. Did I buy a 21 year old used Ti frame off Ebay and throw Dura Ace on it and smile because I needed to do it for my ego ? According to you that would be the only reason since I am not a pro. I could have got the same level of functionality out of components thousands of dollars less. I didn't even need another bike FFS.....but I always wanted a Ti bike and now I have one. Yay for me ....I think my ego is unaffected since I don't ride in groups and I don't ride to impress anyone since I am slow and kinda old.

I did it for the sheer fun of it. I think it rides way better than my old aluminum ...maybe it rides like steel. I wouldn't know because I didn't want a steel frame. I bought what I wanted. Do I buy Italian racing motorcycles because my ego demands it or because I like the way they look, sound and ride.

Now this thread has devolved from the OP asking and getting answers about his question to you essentially saying ... if its not a steel bicycle you are doing it for your ego and its inferior to steel blah blah blah.

Here's a thought. Stop it.
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Old 05-31-22, 09:59 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Rdmonster69
You have certainly not expanded my imagination or anything close to it. You seem to be utterly unable to understand the concept of people buying things because they like it. Did I buy a 21 year old used Ti frame off Ebay and throw Dura Ace on it and smile because I needed to do it for my ego ? According to you that would be the only reason since I am not a pro. I could have got the same level of functionality out of components thousands of dollars less. I didn't even need another bike FFS.....but I always wanted a Ti bike and now I have one. Yay for me ....I think my ego is unaffected since I don't ride in groups and I don't ride to impress anyone since I am slow and kinda old.

I did it for the sheer fun of it. I think it rides way better than my old aluminum ...maybe it rides like steel. I wouldn't know because I didn't want a steel frame. I bought what I wanted. Do I buy Italian racing motorcycles because my ego demands it or because I like the way they look, sound and ride.

Now this thread has devolved from the OP asking and getting answers about his question to you essentially saying ... if its not a steel bicycle you are doing it for your ego and its inferior to steel blah blah blah.

Here's a thought. Stop it.
I bought a 27 year old Ti frame and threw Ultegra on it. It rides and performs like my steel bikes, but weighs about a pound less. But that's not a "practical reason" to own it.
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Old 06-03-22, 06:20 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by beng1
. ...titanium is for the pro, or those who are looking for jewelry, not a bicycle.
What utter nonsense. The only discipline I can think of where a professional racer would not be on a carbon fiber bike would be a long distance off road race. Even there I expect that most professional racers would be on carbon.

I bought my first Lynskey for a winter commuter. No worries about the mixture they put on the roads here in the winter.

I didn't want to ruin a nice old Ritchey steel frame, so I bought Ti.
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Old 06-03-22, 08:39 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by cxwrench
They're aluminum, of course they have a short fatigue life.
My experience with aluminum in general is that it doesn't like being bent twice. Derailleur hangers get that second bend every time the bike falls over and the hanger straightened again. I'm not saying it will break after that second bend, but it has been compromised. Might well become a JRA failure some future year.
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Old 06-03-22, 08:54 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by beng1
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So you just have to look at the chances of you destroying the hanger vs. the cost of having it repaired vs. how much good a titanium frame will really do you. I don't think the weight saving of a titanium frame, and it's cost, is going to make any difference in anyone's life unless they are a pro-cyclist making a living at it, for anyone else it is just jewelry.
Some of us ride titanium frames for the ride. I rode one over 30 years ago for a 1/2 mile and knew instantly "this is it!". For me, it isn't about weight. And yes, ti is different with some things being more difficult to live with and some things easier.
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