beicster 

It is currently built up with a mostly parts bin build just to see if I like how it rides. I have only had time for about two miles worth of neighborhood riding but it is very smooth. And, it just fits.

Not sure what the final build will be but it is definitely a keeper.

ascherer 

Looks great, enjoy. You'll find they ride differently with drop bars, if you're curious.

bear_a_bug 

Just built up from a recent purchase from @fender1 on the sales subforum. One 15 miler yesterday on the International, and it's just lovely.

For now, running 700c wheelset (mix of DA and Campy rims with a 7 speed 14-30 freewheel), Suntour Vx RD, Mafac Competition brakes and levers, Simplex retrofriction shifters, SR Apex 86 BCD crankset (47/30), VO stem, RH parallel handlebars, and I think the rest is Campy stuff from the sale.

Debating fendering it up for the rest of winter, or keeping this for the dry summer months. I don't think I can wait that long...

fender1

Great build and glad you are enjoying it. This is what it looked like when I got from the seller’s garage:

tfbike 

All very nice. I am always on the lookout for a Champagne 24 1/2. Once again early 70's Raleigh seem to change with the wind. Noticing fork curves. Some are smooth all the way, some seem to curve forward noticeably. Seeing the same thing on early competitions. Thoughts? I am somewhat fork sensitive since I am still looking for a match for my 71-72 Lilac Comp.

steelbikeguy

I've been fortunate to own a '71 and a '74 International (still have the '74). The '71 seems to have the curve a little lower on the fork.. or maybe I sh][/ould say that the radius of the curve is smaller.
The '74 has about 2 1/4" of rake. Not sure what the '71 had.
Pics below, for comparison.

The '71 Int.



The '74 Int.



Admittedly, the backgrounds don't make it easy to get a clear look at the fork itself. This would be a case where a white garage door might be quite appreciated!

Steve in Peoria

tfbike 

You are on to what I am talking about. Look at beicster's and bear_a_bug's. Both 71? Same crown, small red International, very different shapes. At least to my eyes.

steelbikeguy

I'd guess that Beicster's fork has a rake closer to my '74 than my '71. I wonder if there is enough info available to really analyze what fork radius was used?? Raleigh was certainly known to change the details on their bikes, so perhaps the fork rake radius varied with the tide or the phase of the moon, or whether it was Monday, or ....??

I hadn't noticed differences in fork crowns, but there might be a small difference between my former '71 and my current '74. The pointed tang on the brown '71 seems slightly longer (or I may be imagining it?).





Steve in Peoria

beicster 

I wonder if someone attempted to change the radius on mine. I mentioned that my bottom bracket is 290mm high and removing some of the bend would make that happen. I have no idea how much changing the rake would raise the bottom bracket. Seems like gugie mentioned that in a thread somewhere but I don't recall how much of a different it made. I'll get a better picture of the fork bend and post it so we can compare more directly.

Edit to add a photo that the seller posted

steelbikeguy

if the fork was de-raked much, it would raise the front end. Is the top tube sloping when wheels are installed?

Steve in Peoria

beicster 

I'll check when I get home.

Edit to add- the top tube is dead level.

tfbike 

So I don't want to go too far the direction of "de raking". There are too many examples out there for it not to be factory. At least in most cases. As some might remember I am on a mission to find a correct fork for my 71-72 Competition. So I notice a lot of forks on Raleigh's. A lot of 70-71 Comps have a more radical curve, like some of these Internationals. Every Lilac Comp I have seen (72 only)? have a more gradual rake like some of these Internationals.

I guess what has surprised me is the variance for Internationals. I think I need the Wagner (Vagner) #12 crown for mine, and I believe that is what these Intl's have. Correct me if I am wrong.

At least all Internationals have Campy dropouts right?


Tom in Wellington, Co, still waiting for snow.

daka

This needs a comment from one of the framebuilders like @gugie, @bulgie or @Doug Fattic. I think there is a relationship between the head tube angle and the amount of fork rake. To maintain a fixed amount of trail (the characteristic that gives a caster wheel the ability to align in the direction of travel) a more slack head tube angle would need additional fork rake. I've also been told that varying the amount of trail does have an effect on the way a bike handles so mixing and matching forks and frames could have an unexpected outcome.

gugie 

Lots to unpack here.

First, @daka is correct, all things equal, you can decrease trail with a steeper head tube angle or increase the rake. My buddy Jim G. has an online calculator that you can play with to see what changing various parameters has on trail. This doesn't account for changing a parameter on an individual frame, however. For example, if you add rake to your fork, this "curls up" the end of the fork more, which makes the distance from the axle to fork crown shorter, so the front end drops a bit, which in turn makes the head tube angle steeper (head tube angles are measured from level ground, not the top tube!) The math behind this is covered in Tom Matchak's excellent white paper. My DIY fork reraker drops the front of the bike at the fork crown 0.17mm for every 1mm of rake I add - I've done enough of them to figure this out empirically. I rarely add more than 10-15mm of rake to a fork, so the drop is pretty insignificant. A bottom bracket is about halfway between the rear wheel (pivot point) to the fork crown,so it drops half that. So, a 12mm addition of fork rake drops the front end 2mm, and the bottom bracket drops 1mm.

What does this get you? Think of trail as a "lever" when you turn. More trail, bigger lever, so a high trail bike will be much faster to respond to steering inputs, or be more "twitchy". Think of a Formula 1 race car, where the "lock to lock" turn of the steering wheel is very small. I wouldn't want to drive one of those cross country! Criterium bikes are the classic example of high trail bikes - you need to be able to make quick turns in the pack to make a move or respond to one. The downside is you have to keep on top of the steering, so a long distance tourer with high trail wouldn't be something I'd want. Low trail bikes "deaden" the steering input compared to high trail, so you're not having to make constant inputs to keep it going in the line you want. I find that my low trail bikes don't require constant correction in sweeping turns, but I do have to turn the handlebars a bit more. Put a handlebar bag and low rider panniers on a low trail bike, load it up, and you'll find they handle not much different than if it were unloaded. The result is a bike that you can load up with most of the additional weight in the front and still be able to comfortably climb out of the saddle riding uphill.

Note also that individuals have personal preferences, and you have to think of the bike + rider as the system, not just the bike. When I do a 650b, low trail conversion I take into account the bikes the customer has , what they like, dislike, and rarely deliver a frame with trail a lot different than what they currently ride.

gugie 

As far as early 70's Raleigh forks go, there's so much variation from fortnight to fortnight that making a claim that Internationals have different rakes than Competitions doesn't make sense. I try to follow Admiral Hopper's advice. One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions. I built my own measurement device to measuare fork rake.

bulgie 

Beautiful bike, thoughtful build.

Can I ask about the brakes? Specifically the thing that holds the brake-pad post, circled below:

(your pic, cropped and marked up)

If I'm seein' what I think I'm seein', this is a style I don't remember seein' before.
It's somehow one piece? instead of what I'm used to, an eyebolt pulling down through an alloy ring. Like this:


I guess it can't be too rare, I just now noticed that the Racer on Velobase has this style too. I just haven't paid enough attention, or I need to get out more...
I'd be curious about how it tightens on the post. Anyone have an exploded-view, or can just explain it in words? Should I ask in a separate thread instead of here?

But anyway, back to Internationals, sorry for the tangent.

jjhabbs 

Here you go! 1973 model

bear_a_bug 

Good eye! This was the first time I encountered this style of brake pad post attachment, and I've run centerpulls or cantis on most every bike I've owned for the last dozen years. I just ran out the garage to take another look. This pic should help explain how it works.


I like it. The serrated edge of the outer sleeve helps index the pad alignment when tightening the rear bolt. You lose the ability to toe-in the brake pads like the more common attachment does (filing a groove in the washer), but I haven't needed any toe-in on these brakes (yet).

repechage

test, don't guess.
But do not assume a bike was built with a level top tube.
consider, the path of least resistance gets you a bike with a slightly rising top tube but no blacksmithing of the lugs to construct. Done.

bulgie 

Yes!! Thanks so much for that. I thought of asking for a partially-diassembled pic but that seemed presumptuous... Above-and-beyond!

It looks functionally identical to the alloy ring, if the ring "grew up and over" the eyebolt, enclosing it. Just like a traditional 'internal' hub QR where the cam is enclosed. But stronger because it's made out of steel instead of alu. Those Al rings sometimes get distorted from over-tightening the eyebolt, where this steel one will be bombproof.

Not necessarily. You could still file the round hole to an oval on one side as needed, though then the chrome would be gone and the steel would rust. So, best avoided.

I'm OK with bending the arm to toe it in, done it a thousand times while assembling low-quality 10-speeds during the early-'70s bike boom. A "Crescent wrench" is surprisingly effective for that. Git 'er done! Done sensitively, I don't think it hurts the brake any, zero problems down the road from it (that I know of!) Talking Mafac and Weinmann here, some others, but not on all brakes. The Universal 61 in particular is totally brittle and will snap before any toe-in occurs. Removing some rubber from the rear of the pad on a belt-sander might be just as good if you have a belt-sander handy. Assembing those bike-boom 10-speeds, that would have slowed us down too much, and some customers might have complained if some of their brake pad was gone before they even took ownership...

Thanks again for the Mafac education.

Mark B

repechage

just avoid crescent wrench manipulation on Universal and Balilla arms. Fracture can most often result.

Lotussiddharta

Hello there, my name is Levi, I'm from the philippines, I just bought a 2nd hand mixte which I am currently getting repainted, when the paint was stripped off, we saw a 4 digit serial number with and upside down PDS letters that is located a half inch off from the numbers.. I am on a journey in finding out what the brand of the frame is through small clues, at first I looked at mixte bikes with the same detail design which I found similar on a Maruishi and Lotus challenger xs, on my research, Lotus was a brand that hired maruishi or should I say collaborated to be one of their producers..
although none of the patterns of serial numbers of Maruishi and Lotus' match a PDS (3 letter) and 4 digit numbers..
1 more clue is that the frame has BOCAMA Lugs which from other articles or forums were made in france and used for classic italian frames from the late 70's and early 80's..

the japanese (maruishi) design and origin of the lugs does not match at all..

I found this one thread on a forum where someone mentioned a Holdsworth mixte with a serial number PDS 7272, I went on to check for holdsworth serial numbers and I found a forum where some Holdsworth owners are recording data of Holdsworth bikes that are still out there by submitting the serial number.. it is stated there that a 4 digit number refers to frames that were customized built in the 70's but non of the serial numbers have letters on them.. and I sent them a photo of my serial number to verify if the frame that I have could actually be a Holdsworth, some one aswered the day after and confirmed that it was not..

I also posted the photo of the serial number of my frame in a classic japanese bike group, one commented that accourding to the threading of the frame, he believes it to be of french made..



So far my only clues are:

1. PDS 1654
2. Bocama lugs
3. French threading
4. Maruishi/Lotus challenger xs mixte design

Maytag

Let me throw in my '73. Started as a frame up build, most bikes I see are larger than I am able to mount, so thanks to a fellow forum member I acquired a frame for my size. I already had Shimano Arabesque components laying around and only had to source a matching crankset. My wife sponsored the Brooks saddle and I enjoyed every mile on it since. Living in the mountains, I opted for a 6 speed freewheel. So after years of buying/finding neglected low to medium budget bikes, restoring them and moving up to the next hunt....I think I am done, I have what I was looking for all those years.

beicster 

That is a beauty. More pictures please.

Maytag

well, you ask for.....really nothing spectacular. Most parts I already had. Even had Campy derailleurs and shifters, but went the Shimano route. On the steerer I was looking for a clean front end with no cables looping over the handlebar.