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How do you convince people you love to use daytime running lights?

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How do you convince people you love to use daytime running lights?

Old 07-17-20, 05:57 AM
  #51  
dr_max
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Originally Posted by Pratt View Post
Running lights, no matter how bright, or not bright, depend on the motorists seeing them, and they are sometimes distracted. That being said, I do like them for bright, sunny days, while riding on lightly travelled, dirt roads here in Vermont. Ironically, the deep shadows after the bright sunshine as one goes under trees makes an un illuminated bike difficult, at best to see. And, of course, it is exactly the type of road the motorist might expect to be empty. Still depending on someone else's vigilance, but at least you're giving them a fighting chance
100% agree with your comment
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Old 07-19-20, 12:25 PM
  #52  
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Anyhoo , I have 3 bikes with German made head and tail lights and dynamo hubs. Busch & Muller designed the reflectors to have a cut off beam pattern.
by having the LED in the top facing downward towards the reflector, not at the bottom of a parabolic reflector like a Flashlight & so many other bike headlights..

I have a battery one too..

Flashing strobe lights are Verboten in Deutschland on bicycles, so they don't. they, the dynamo ones have a light sensor..
In mt B&M Eyc senso T the day running diode is a flat little square, 2 of them . the sensor turns the bright diode on as it gets darker out..


Fortunately I don't have to commute in a big city some do to make & spend the big bucks that are to be found there..







..
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Old 07-26-20, 06:22 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by lyf View Post
Would love to hear tips and links to research. I've seen a few studies on daytime running lights reducing accidents in motorcycles, cars, and bicycles. It is interesting how they do the studies -- because the argument is always that having lights on may make someone drive more safely.

It's taken time but I have convinced a few cyclists to spend more money on ultra-bright front lights (daytime, 1000+ lumen flashing) and rear lights (300 lumen) and have them on at all hours of the day.

One argument that works is showing before and after photos of a cyclist in shadows (whether a building or tree shadow). There is a clear difference in visibility, and it's obvious you can't plan in advance at high speeds if you hit shadows and don't know what's behind you. It is too much cognitive load, so worth spending the extra money up front to feel safer should you happen to bike into shadows.

It can feel wimpy to have lights on all the time, so what have you found works for convincing people you love to get that added bump in safety? This can elicit strong emotions so that's why I'm trying to figure out softer ways to have this conversation and hopefully we might save some lives!
How do you convince people to mind their own business.
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Old 07-26-20, 08:20 PM
  #54  
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You don't need 1,000 plus lumen strobing light for the front during the day, that's absurd! All I have is a 400 lumen and on strobe I can very easily and quickly see it from a block away. In addition to that, you have more control as to what is happening coming at you from the front and can take precautionary measures if needed.

I do however agree in the rear you need 300 lumens to show up real well, and those cobb type of LED lights do not show up in broad daylight, direct sunlight for some reason washes the cobb lights right out.

During the day I use the Lezyne Hecto Drive 400XL on the front on the bar on strobe; and a NiteRider Omega 300 tail light connected to the saddle bag on flash mode.

Extra credit: At night I put the Lezyne on my helmet with the strobe mode, and add a Phillips Saferide 80 on the bar on steady (well, it only has steady); I then add a NR Sentry Aero 260 on the rear of the helmet on alternating flash (alt flash is the side lights alternate with the rear facing light), and put the NR 300 on steady.
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Old 07-27-20, 02:49 AM
  #55  
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Many professional motorcycle couriers in my city turn on their headlights (low beam) and flashing rear light at all times time during the day in all weather conditions.

That's enough to convince me to follow suit. I think it helps make you more visible to motorists changing lanes in front of you and to motorists behind you and indeed traffic conditions in my city is rather insane, high volume and many motorists will change lanes without warning and suddenly (without using signals or using the opposite turn signal!). They might be dissuaded to change lane if they see you clearly on their mirrors with your front light.
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Old 07-27-20, 10:52 AM
  #56  
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I have a different question

Originally Posted by rebel1916 View Post
How do you convince people to mind their own business.
How do you convince people not to be rude on line? The message to which you are referring was about convincing loved ones. If you're not one, then it wasn't about you. I don't think the person who wrote the message was suggesting that they were going to ride through town like Paul Revere shouting "You have to ride with lights!"
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Old 07-27-20, 10:55 AM
  #57  
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"1000 lumen … light"

I'm 100% all in on riding during the day with lights. BUT. If you are using a 1000 lumen light, it doesn't need to be in my eyes as I'm riding toward you. Turn it down toward the ground about 10 yards in front of you bike. That means it won't blind me, but will get you seen. Win/win. (I noticed a few weeks ago on the SCT that many of the riders--all in professional riding gear--had extremely bright lights aimed right at my eyes. F-ing rude, gentlemen. [And they were all, every one, men.])
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Old 07-27-20, 11:17 AM
  #58  
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Daytime visibility - I know this is slightly off topic since it has nothing to do with lighting but: my experience both as a cyclist and driver is that jerseys in bright solid colors are seen. Dark is often not and patterns, even really bright ones, often disappear. I wear solid yellow and orange (and white but my experience is that white is nowhere near as good a lot of the time) jerseys most of the time simply to improve the odds that I get noticed. They are the only thing I have done in 50 years of cycling that has drivers coming up beside me in daytime, rolling down their window and thanking me.

Ben
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Old 07-28-20, 09:50 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Elbeinlaw View Post
How do you convince people not to be rude on line? The message to which you are referring was about convincing loved ones. If you're not one, then it wasn't about you. I don't think the person who wrote the message was suggesting that they were going to ride through town like Paul Revere shouting "You have to ride with lights!"
His loved ones don't want to hear it. Believe me.
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Old 07-28-20, 10:27 AM
  #60  
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I rode this morning through residential streets and avenues on routes that appear on maps in Atlanta as "Bike Routes," though there are not bike lanes. Virtually every one of the commuters (this is 7:30 to 8:30 AM) was using lights. I was very impressed.
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Old 07-28-20, 12:13 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by lyf View Post
Would love to hear tips and links to research. I've seen a few studies on daytime running lights reducing accidents in motorcycles, cars, and bicycles. It is interesting how they do the studies -- because the argument is always that having lights on may make someone drive more safely.
If they "always" have this argument, it should be easy for you to find one example to show.

I don't think many people say that's why daytime running lights are safer.
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Old 07-28-20, 12:17 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by PaulH View Post
Agreed. The German government bans flashing bike headlights.
The Germans also ban flashing rear lights too.
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Old 07-28-20, 12:22 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Pratt View Post
Running lights, no matter how bright, or not bright, depend on the motorists seeing them, and they are sometimes distracted.
This is obvious and irrelevant. If they don't see the lights being on, they aren't seeing the lights off (so, for this case, it's the same either way).

The issue is whether the light increase the rate/likelihood of visibility over not having a light.

Since being distracted tends to be temporary, the farther away something is visible means there's more time to longer than the time being distracted.
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Old 07-28-20, 12:26 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by bobwysiwyg View Post
Why is it necessary to convince anyone one way or the other?
Why is it "necessary" to even talk about anything?

The process of trying to convince people ideally makes people better understand about the thing. Isn't that useful?

Originally Posted by bobwysiwyg View Post
I ask this in all seriousness to understand. What is the difference between a "strobe" and " blinking? "
Strobe -> a flashing light you hate.
Blinking -> a flashing light you think doesn't do anything.

It seems that people are using "strobe" for really-bright flashing lights and "blinking" for kinda weak flashing lights.

Last edited by njkayaker; 07-28-20 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 07-28-20, 12:43 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
... but these are not xenon tubes....
Are these used on any bicycle light?

I suspect people are talking about high-powered LED lights when talking about "strobes". Some people might be referring to lower-powered LED lights when talking about "strobes".

Last edited by njkayaker; 07-28-20 at 12:54 PM.
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Old 07-28-20, 01:00 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
Are these used on any bicycle light?

I suspect people are talking about high-powered LED lights when talking about "strobes". Some people might be referring to lower-powered LED lights when talking about "strobes".
I just have not encountered LEDs that bright in daylight... They may exist. I am not saying they don't. And it may be an issue of where, as in shady locations or in the canyons of NYC. Pretty powerful for a bike... Heck, I haven't even seen "strobes" on emergency vehicles that I would consider "blinding" in daylight. But again, they may exist.
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Old 07-28-20, 01:17 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
I just have not encountered LEDs that bright in daylight... They may exist. I am not saying they don't. And it may be an issue of where, as in shady locations or in the canyons of NYC. Pretty powerful for a bike... Heck, I haven't even seen "strobes" on emergency vehicles that I would consider "blinding" in daylight. But again, they may exist.
No one here is talking about xenon strobe lights.

But it's not clear exactly what they are talking about. Some of them appear to not be quite clear on the difference between daytime and nighttime.

The ambient light matters. So does distance.

I sometimes find the flashing front lights irritating (at night). If you are close, there are lots of LED lights that are blinding.
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Old 07-30-20, 11:20 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by greatscott View Post
Not sure what you meant by strobes, but lights sold in America with a flash pattern, what some will call strobe, is not illegal, if they were illegal the light manufactures would not be able to put that function on the light; like in the UK, flashing lights of any kind, front or rear, is illegal, so lights sold there do have a flash function.

The California code says this: California Vehicle Code Division 11 Chapter 1 Article 4 Section 21201 (d) covers the requirements for cyclists when riding in darkness. It states:
A bicycle operated during darkness upon a highway, a sidewalk where bicycle operation is not prohibited by the local jurisdiction, or a bikeway, as defined in Section 890.4 of the Streets and Highways Code, shall be equipped with all of the following:

(1) A lamp emitting a white light that, while the bicycle is in motion, illuminates the highway, sidewalk, or bikeway in front of the bicyclist and is visible from a distance of 300 feet in front and from the sides of the bicycle.

(2) A red reflector on the rear that shall be visible from a distance of 500 feet to the rear when directly in front of lawful upper beams of headlamps on a motor vehicle.

(3) A white or yellow reflector on each pedal, shoe, or ankle visible from the front and rear of the bicycle from a distance of 200 feet.

(4) A white or yellow reflector on each side forward of the center of the bicycle, and a white or red reflector on each side to the rear of the center of the bicycle, except that bicycles that are equipped with reflectorized tires on the front and the rear need not be equipped with these side reflectors.
No mention of flashing lights.
California Vehicle Code ARTICLE 7. Flashing and Colored Lights [25250 - 25282]

25250. Flashing lights are prohibited on vehicles except as otherwise permitted.
...
25268. No person shall display a flashing amber warning light on a
vehicle as permitted by this code except when an unusual traffic hazard exists.

If you consider a bicycle an unusual traffic hazard, then feel free to add as many amber flashing lights as you desire. White flashing lights don't seem legal in CA from what I can tell, but they are tolerated by the police. The eyes are much more sensitive to amber than red and they are far more visible. I always use a flashing amber taillight in addition to a red taillight. Nobody sells them, so they must be illegal in many places. Red flashing lights are very restricted. The code you quote allows them on the back of bicycles, otherwise, only police and fire trucks have red flashing lights. A red/amber combo is very eye catching.
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Old 07-31-20, 01:00 PM
  #69  
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Automobile halogen lamps produce around 1,400 lumens. HID lamps produce around 3,000 lumens. So it's not the outright power of a bicycle headlight that's the problem, it is the beam pattern and setup. Most bicycle lights are simple spotlights with a simple round beam pattern. There are some makes that shape the beam and others that have a hard cutoff but they are in the small minority. My Cygolite Metro Pro has an oval pattern that I try to make sure that I point downward.

I'd argue that a 1,000 lumen bicycle light with a shaped beam that is aimed properly is no less blinding than an automobile.

Regarding blinking, blinking or modulating headlights on motorcycles came into fashion about 10-15 years ago. Anecdotally, they are much more visible. I lead motorcycle tours from time to time and have to keep track of a dozen or more motorcyles in my rear view mirror while I'm riding through traffic. The motorcycles with "modulating" lights are much easier to spot in my mirrors. If everyone had modulating headlights, then it might be chaos, but I'd hazard a guess that fewer than 5% of motorcycles have modulating headlights, so they benefit from being different.

NHTSA did a study about this. Here's part of their abstract:

"...having either LA (low mounted auxiliary) or MHB (Modulated High Beam) lamps on the motorcycle significantly reduced the probability of obtaining a short safety margin (< 3.44 seconds) as compared to the baseline lighting treatment....Eye tracking data indicated that the average duration of participantsí gazes at the motorcycle were significantly longer with the LHA lighting as compared to the baseline condition. These results should be interpreted cautiously in light of differences that were observed between participants who reported using a landmark‐based strategy to judge when it was no longer safe to turn in front of approaching vehicles and participants who used other strategies. Overall the results suggest that enhancing the frontal conspicuity of motorcycles with lighting treatments beyond an illuminated low beam headlamp may be an effective countermeasure for daytime crashes involving right‐of‐way violations."

SOURCE: https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.do...les/811507.pdf

Personally, I do run blinking headlights in the daytime on roads. I try to make sure that it's pointed downward though. Is it legal in my state? I'm not sure. But I ride through some busy places with lots of parallel parking and I need all the help I can get and am willing to risk a ticket in order to be safe.

Based on the NHTSA study, I may look for fork mounted auxiliary lights to add to my kit.

Lastly, if blinking has no effect on conspicuity, why do automobile turn signals blink?
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Old 07-31-20, 03:18 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by john m flores View Post
Regarding blinking, blinking or modulating headlights on motorcycles came into fashion about 10-15 years ago. Anecdotally, they are much more visible. I lead motorcycle tours from time to time and have to keep track of a dozen or more motorcyles in my rear view mirror while I'm riding through traffic. The motorcycles with "modulating" lights are much easier to spot in my mirrors.
I wonder if a single static light might be unconsciously ignored as being something like a reflection. If it changes, it looks very different than a reflection. The double lights of a car are pretty unique (it's not likely they will be confused with a reflection).

Originally Posted by john m flores View Post
If everyone had modulating headlights, then it might be chaos, but I'd hazard a guess that fewer than 5% of motorcycles have modulating headlights, so they benefit from being different.
I suspect one reason flashing rear lights are illegal in Germany is because of the chaos/confusion that would result if there were lots of cyclists with flashing lights.

In the US, cyclists (outside of cities) are rare.

Originally Posted by john m flores View Post
Personally, I do run blinking headlights in the daytime on roads. I try to make sure that it's pointed downward though. Is it legal in my state? I'm not sure. But I ride through some busy places with lots of parallel parking and I need all the help I can get and am willing to risk a ticket in order to be safe.
It doesn't seem flashing front or rear lights bother cops. I think the legality is moot.

Originally Posted by john m flores View Post
Based on the NHTSA study, I may look for fork mounted auxiliary lights to add to my kit.
The NHTSA study seem to show that modulating headlights added the same benefit as low-mounted auxiliary lights. I wonder if having two lights works by making the thing more "odd" looking.

Originally Posted by john m flores View Post
Lastly, if blinking has no effect on conspicuity, why do automobile turn signals blink?
More support for flashing being more conspicuous.
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Old 07-31-20, 03:43 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
It doesn't seem flashing front or rear lights bother cops. I think the legality is moot.
Just don't use blue lights. Cops are very protective of their exclusive use of blue lights and that will get you pulled over. No purple either, it looks blue to many colorblind people. I would only use red on the back. Drivers expect red lights to be on the back, you don't want them to think your riding away from them, when you are going towards them.
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Old 08-06-20, 05:10 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by john m flores View Post
Automobile halogen lamps produce around 1,400 lumens. HID lamps produce around 3,000 lumens. So it's not the outright power of a bicycle headlight that's the problem, it is the beam pattern and setup. Most bicycle lights are simple spotlights with a simple round beam pattern. There are some makes that shape the beam and others that have a hard cutoff but they are in the small minority. My Cygolite Metro Pro has an oval pattern that I try to make sure that I point downward.

I'd argue that a 1,000 lumen bicycle light with a shaped beam that is aimed properly is no less blinding than an automobile.

Regarding blinking, blinking or modulating headlights on motorcycles came into fashion about 10-15 years ago. Anecdotally, they are much more visible. I lead motorcycle tours from time to time and have to keep track of a dozen or more motorcyles in my rear view mirror while I'm riding through traffic. The motorcycles with "modulating" lights are much easier to spot in my mirrors. If everyone had modulating headlights, then it might be chaos, but I'd hazard a guess that fewer than 5% of motorcycles have modulating headlights, so they benefit from being different.

NHTSA did a study about this. Here's part of their abstract:

"...having either LA (low mounted auxiliary) or MHB (Modulated High Beam) lamps on the motorcycle significantly reduced the probability of obtaining a short safety margin (< 3.44 seconds) as compared to the baseline lighting treatment....Eye tracking data indicated that the average duration of participantsí gazes at the motorcycle were significantly longer with the LHA lighting as compared to the baseline condition. These results should be interpreted cautiously in light of differences that were observed between participants who reported using a landmark‐based strategy to judge when it was no longer safe to turn in front of approaching vehicles and participants who used other strategies. Overall the results suggest that enhancing the frontal conspicuity of motorcycles with lighting treatments beyond an illuminated low beam headlamp may be an effective countermeasure for daytime crashes involving right‐of‐way violations."

SOURCE: https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.do...les/811507.pdf

Personally, I do run blinking headlights in the daytime on roads. I try to make sure that it's pointed downward though. Is it legal in my state? I'm not sure. But I ride through some busy places with lots of parallel parking and I need all the help I can get and am willing to risk a ticket in order to be safe.

Based on the NHTSA study, I may look for fork mounted auxiliary lights to add to my kit.

Lastly, if blinking has no effect on conspicuity, why do automobile turn signals blink?

1400 lumens on a car is the high beam. You are never supposed to have your high beams on where you are likely to encounter other vehicles because it is blinding regardless of how it's aimed. Low beam is more like 700.

The turn signal question is stupid. It's to distinguish them from running lights in the same position. I'll turn the question around on you--why don't brake lights blink?
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Old 08-07-20, 09:22 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
1400 lumens on a car is the high beam. You are never supposed to have your high beams on where you are likely to encounter other vehicles because it is blinding regardless of how it's aimed. Low beam is more like 700.
High beams are not only brighter but they're aimed farther down the road. And even if low beam is only 700 lumens, there are two of them, so they're brighter than a typical single bicycle headlight. The shape of the beam still makes a big difference.

The turn signal question is stupid. It's to distinguish them from running lights in the same position. I'll turn the question around on you--why don't brake lights blink?
Center high mounted stop lights do blink on when you apply the brakes and it's the change in state from on to off that catches other road users' eye.
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Old 08-10-20, 09:12 PM
  #74  
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Nothing beats having a blinking light on the helmet pushing 700+ lumens. When the cyclist is approaching an intersection, looking left and right will immediately light up any reflective surface. I have caught many cars doing this...and it stops 'em right in their tracks.
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Old 08-11-20, 04:59 AM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by RonDigsBikes View Post
Nothing beats having a blinking light on the helmet pushing 700+ lumens. When the cyclist is approaching an intersection, looking left and right will immediately light up any reflective surface. I have caught many cars doing this...and it stops 'em right in their tracks.
Mounting a flashing 700 lumen light right where it's best positioned to hit a driver's eyes directly, what could go wrong?

Again, someone so obsessed with eliminating the probability of an unlikely hit that they don't notice the obvious immediate hazard they're creating.
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