DaveSSS 

I was going to mount an old Michelin tubed tire on one of my tubeless ready rims, just to see if it would work, but one look at the bead area and I stopped. The bead has protruding nibs about every 3 inches that would either prevent sealing entirely or at least consume a large amount of sealant in an attempt to seal. Tubeless beads are shaped differently and they're very smooth. If your proposed tire beads don't look like a tubeless tire, they won't work like it either. If money is tight, keep an eye out for sales. Excel sports has a quite a few half price sales recently. Sometimes 2-packs are priced like singles. Pirelli P- zero is my current favorite. The p-zero and panaracer agilist are both $98 a pair.

​​​​

jesnow

Thank you. This is what I asked for in my original post. The fact that the bead profile is very different is an important point. Although I've been around a while I don't know everything, and I didn't know that. I am a "late adopter". It looks like there is no universal road tubeless tire/rim standard (I didn't actually know that) so that only certain tubeless tires are compatible with certain tubeless rims. Now that I dig a little farther, I'm starting to think it's right to be terrified of road tubeless altogether. But that makes no sense, there must have been millions of cumulative road miles ridden on tubeless, and you never hear about them burping. Well unless you google it:

https://www.velonews.com/gear/techni...-e-bike-power/

This would indeed scare the crap out of anybody, and this story was *with* tubeless compatible rims and TL tires, just I guess an unlucky combination.

Cheers,
Jon.

squirtdad

this is a pretty good write up on tubeless from

quick summary.... not good Ideas as proposed by OP

https://gulocomposites.com/tubes-and-tubeless-tires/
quotes

To sum it up

• Tubeless and non-tubeless tires both work with inner tubes.
• If you want to go with a tubeless tire system, the easiest path is to invest in a tubeless-ready wheelset using sealant to utilize the full benefit of this tire system.
• If you’re putting non-tubeless tires on tubeless-ready wheels, use tubes.
• You can attempt to put non-tubeless tires on a tubeless-ready wheel without a tube, but you better fill it with a truckload of sealant and pray you will survive the ride. Non-tubeless tires have thin sidewalls and will probably blow off the wheel, likely to burp sealant, or more easily tear. This is not a recommended setup.

Hookless Rims

The second type of tire rim is hookless or Tubeless Straight Side; this system works only with the tubeless tires. The rims for hookless have much tighter tolerances in place, as do tubeless tires; they also have no stretch in the bead. This combination creates a secure and safe connection, eliminating the ability for the tire to come away from the rim (which would only happen in extreme circumstances).

Tubeless

Tires recommended for use in a tubeless configuration are often called “TLR,” which is short for “tubeless-ready.” The TLR denotes the tire capable of functioning with or without an innertube. The TLR casings feature a strictly defined bead shape molded during the vulcanization process. The bead shape perfectly fits the rim wall to create an airtight seal. If TLR tires are used in tubeless configurations, the rims must also be tubeless-ready. However, if used with a tube, the TLR tire will be mounted and inflated identically to a non-TLR tire.


another article, not as comprehensive

https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/buy...ides/tubeless/

quote

With a road bike, you should never run a non-tubeless tyre tubeless or attempt to convert a standard tube-type rim. The higher pressures used on the road make this dangerous and the consequences of failure can be serious.


Hookless rims are only suitable for tubeless-specific tyres. You can usually fit an inner tube if you need to (for example, as a get-you-home measure – you’ll need to remove the tubeless valve first, of course), but you can’t fit a standard tube-type tyre because there’s a risk it will blow off the rim.

jesnow

I used to run corsas, sweet tires! I had Mavic open pros too, beck in the day. I've heard of rolling a tubular, which will get you laughed at on your way to tthe hospital, but never heard of a clincher failing that way. I did once explode a cheap clincher from overinflating it, that was totally my fault.

I'm now seeing that burps do occasionally "just happen" on road tubeless tires, even if both tire and rim are "tubeless ready". I'm now wondering if the opposite extreme is true, that we're trusting road tubeless way too much. But that can't be, my friends have been riding tubeless for years.

It seems to be the case that there are no standards for tubeless rims and tires, and so you have to somehow know if your tubeless tires and tubeless rims are going to work together and not cause you to face plant. In light of that I'll move my original question of using tubeful tires tubeless into "no, tubelesss are tricky enough when both tire and rim are designed for it".

Cheers,
Jon.

jesnow

Thanks squirtdad , I won't re-quote the whole thing. That article points out the dangers of tubeless I had no idea about.

It makes me wonder why anybody trusts tubeless tires at all on the road. There seem to be a lot of people who have woken up in a helicopter without doing the foolish thing I proposed.

I think I'll just stick with tubes for a while, until there are real standards. I never really understood that road tubeless is so full of bear traps.

Cheers,
Jon.

DaveSSS 

Tubeless tires are extremely difficult to pinch flat. I ride mountain descents where rocks fall from the canyon walls. It doesn't take a very big rock to cause a pinch flat with a tubed tire. Tubeless tires can be run at lower pressures too. Hookless rims allow even lower pressures. I switched from 19mm hooked rims to 23mm hookless so I can run about 8 psi lower pressure. With 25mm internal width hookless rims, and 28mm tires, I use 52/56 psi. I'm totally sold on wider hookless rims. Eventually, all of my wheels will be 25mm IW hookless. I've ridden mine up to 57mph. See the pressure calculator at zipp.com.

Eric F 

Do you have other examples of this besides the singular one you posted before? One example does not equal "a lot". While the assumption was made that it was a tubeless system failure that caused the accident, the evidence provided is vague, at best. The previous issue with both tires burping and going flat tends to point towards improper tire pressure, which could easily be the same reason he ended up on a helicopter.

I had a front flat on a twisty mountain descent that put me on the ground in a hurry at about 30mph. I cracked a rib and lost a fair amount of skin. Luckily, if it had happened in a different place on that road, there might have been much more damage to my body. I was riding clinchers with tubes.

Kontact 

Burping happens on low pressure tubeless tires. But we aren't talking about a tubeless tire, but a regular tire with a regular bead dimension and shape. The conditions that cause tubular tires to roll may also cause a non-tubeless to burp.

I don't know this to be a fact, because no one goes out and tests combinations of stuff that should fail by their very nature.


In all fairness, it sounds like you had a pinched tube that drove the bead of the tire off the rim, then popped. Not the other way around. Tubes can't just blow on their own, and punctures don't release more pressure than is already in the tube.

alcjphil

Listen: I have gone down with tube type tires when my front tire punctured as I was leaning into a corner. Nothing I could do about it. On the other side I hit a pothole at 70 kph hard enough to dent my rim and eject my water bottle. Tubeless tires. No flat tire. A guy riding beside me was sure that I had probably broken my bike frame hearing the sound as I hit the hole. No way that a tube type tire would not have flatted in that situation

alcjphil

All road bike tire systems have bear traps. Tubular? If not well glued you can roll a tire off. Just look at the film of the famous descent into Gap where Joseba Belokirolled a tubular approaching a turn and fell breaking his hip forcing Lance Armstrong into doing a bit of cross country riding. This basically ended Beloki's professional career. Clincher tires? If you flat going into a curve you are going down, and don't forget pinch flats. Tubeless? Can sometimes be tricky to set up(although in 12 years I have never had a problem). There are standards but you have to read the fine print, hooked vs hookless means that you absolutely need hookless compatible tires if you choose hookless rims. Other than that, tubeless isn't any more difficult than riding with inner tubes. As for the price difference between tube type and tubeless versions of the same tire, don't ignore the price of the inner tubes

79pmooney

I wasn't going to speak up here as I haven't run tubeless in any form but I have had a tire blow off at around 25 mph. Did a crash I never want to see again. I'm one of those posters switching to tubulars. Rode Cycle Oregon a couple of months ago on those tubulars and loved it. So much more confidence inspiring on mountain descents I'd never seen before. (I rode tubulars for years including all my racing days. Flatting at 45, even full-blown ear-piercing blowouts, is NBD. Just stop, using both brakes, swap the tire and ride on.)

I've read about pros burping tubeless tires on hard corners. No thanks. And I cannot see how using a non-tubeless tire improves the odds there.

79pmooney

On rolling tubulars - sometimes happens after the crash starts. If it caused the crash, someone slipped up on the glue or tape.

alcjphil

Are you able to cite a specific example? I have been riding road tubeless for about 12 years now and have never encountered this problem even in race situations. My road tubeless setup comes as close as I can remember to riding tubulars in the past with the knowledge that my tires won't immediately dislodge from the rim if a puncture happens. I have rolled a tubular(possibly not well enough glued) but I have never burped a tubeless tire

urbanknight

That's the reason I recently asked about running sealant in tubular tires instead of tubeless, because I was worried a tubeless tire could come unseated just as easily as a clincher and figure a blowout that wrecks the tire would be no more of a hassle on a sew-up than on a tubeless tire.

Is it? You asked for only responses from people who have actually done it. That response is still a hypothesis, although you seem to realize that it's based on some rather solid data and is as good an answer as you're going to get unless and until someone goes out and tries it.

The most likely reason for a clincher to roll is because it loses pressure rapidly, and the pressure from the tube is what keeps a clincher seated. If you're going relatively straight and can roll to a stop in time, it's not a problem, but I have seen a handful of cases (including one for myself) when the person was mid turn or otherwise not able to stop before they ended up skating on bare rim. My case only earned me some road rash on one side and a bent derailleur hanger. Someone else I know cracked a few ribs, punctured a lung, and got knocked out cold. I am hoping tubeless is safer since the bead is generally seated with or without pressure, but I suspect you're right that it's a matter of how well the rim and tire combination is. Considering how much cussing and swearing happened when installing my last set of tires, I hope nothing short of that much effort would be able to unseat them as well.

urbanknight

Saw it happen at a velodrome once. Made me realize how much I am trusting not only my own mechanical skills at maintaining my bike, but also trusting everybody else and their skills as well.

79pmooney

In my racing days there were older riders who were "the polioe";, seeing to it we newcomers had properly glued tires. I heard of tires get ripped off before races.

urbanknight

That's a good idea. Nobody at the track was checking my glue jobs and I was 14! I probably got away with a lot (like reusing chain pins) being 125lb and not putting out much wattage.

squirtdad

jesnow As others have noted there is no one perfect system for tires. All can fail. and everyone has different needs and priorities for their tires and how they use their bike

the best thing a rider can do to minimize issues, is to make sure every thing matches for best results and understand your needs and see how the systems match those needs

If you really want to go tubeless, just make sure you use tubeless ready wheels and tires. and understand all the detail around sealant, understand that the tires may be a bear to get on, and look into the options for on the road fixes.

Have a great next ride

jesnow

Despite the poor discourse some here showed once again, we did learn some things out of this thread. Thanks to everyone who took my question seriously and responded respectfully.

-- It does appear that nobody (we now have quite a few reads) has actually run "tubeful" (don't say tubular if you mean clincher tires with tubes) road tires tubeless on tubeless rims on the road, somebody would have spoken up by now.
-- It was standard practice at the dawn of MTB tubeless tires, so it's not impossible, just for sure not advisable or safe to trust in blindly. I did suggest in my post that one would just pop them on and ride off, which was not intended to be taken literally.
-- I did ask for evidence like tubeful vs tubeless road tires having a very different bead profile. I found the photos myself finally with some effort and posted them up the thread. Conti GP 5000's certainly do have a very different tire bead profile (rounded where it goes into the rim hook) versus GP 500 S TR tubeless (wedge shaped to really hook the hook, and deeper to aid seating). That's an important data point, it's not clear what other manufacturers do. There is no standard for these things. I was thinking a few people who have both types might just get out their phone and shoot a pic. A shop owner would be able to do that in an instant, but nobody did.
-- The hook and bead is not the main thing that holds a tire on the rim, most people know that, it's the fact that at test pressure the bead is a smaller diameter than the edge of the rim. At low pressures and extreme conditions (like on a MTB) you could shift the whole tire so a bead-rim gap forms in one place, that's a burp. Needless to say, a road burp is going to be a hell of a lot worse than a MTB burp, where you might only lose a tiny amount of air compared to the volume of the tire. But people say road burps are rare.
-- The person who called me all kind of names was probably correct: you could maybe get them on there and sealed if you were good at it and tolerant of mess. Stan Koziatek did start this whole tubeless craze with *normal* MTB tires on *normal* MTB rims, that was the whole idea. Not manufacturers charging double. And people raced them and didn't die. Mostly. It was years before there were tubeless specific MTB tires, and then they ran on normal rims for years.
-- Some people said the lack of a sealant layer would make it useless. I don't think so, not all tubeless road tires tires have the sealant layer (TR), those require sealant. Apparently true tubeless road tires do not specify sealant. I didn't know that.
-- Putting sealant in an inner tube is an interesting idea, but off topic. I think Stans used to sell pre-sealed inner tubes.
-- Would you *trust* the faux-tubeless tire setup enough to ride it? I was feeling pretty adventurous when I wrote the original post. I think *if* I got it sealed I'd test the blow-off pressure. Lets say you could get 130 or 150psi in there and it stayed airtight? I might take it on a careful ride in the neighborhood to see what happens at 75psi.

As I said in my original post, it will be a couple months for me to get to it. I need to get my new wheels (which will be real, not faux tubeless) installed first, then experiment on my present wheels. My older wheels aren't tubeless-ready, so nothing to do there. If anybody decides to have a go at it (or knows someone who did) in the meantime please let me know.

Cheers,
Jon.

DiabloScott

I remember "safety checks" before criteriums and every rider would have to get them - mostly glue jobs, but also brakes and bearings and such - generally took less than a minute. I also remember one guy complimenting me on a well-glued set of tires.

Years later I met a young guy who was still doing criteriums and I asked if they still did this and he said "nobody rides sew-ups anymore". That's when I bought a set and have used them on one bike ever since. There was a time when people asked the kinds of stupid questions about tubular tires as they now ask about tubeless ones... I'm a lot better with the first type.

urbanknight

Don't write it off just yet. My thread asking if anyone ran tubulars with sealant inside them was December of last year and got the same kind of replies you got, hypothetical guesses and slightly different practices. Over a half year later (after I abandoned the idea and bought a set of tubeless wheels), someone responded in a completely different thread that they have much success running tubulars with regular tubeless sealant in them. The world is full of people who try things just to try them, and maybe you just haven't found them yet.

Eric F 

FWIW...My singlespeed MTB is setup with old, 26", non-tubeless ready rims and new 26" tubeless tires, and it works very well. With a couple of layers of tubeless rim tape, I was able to sufficiently seal the rim and create conditions that allow for inflation of the tire. It was an experiment that worked out really well for my needs, but there is plenty of guidance on this from others who have done it. That said, this is a low pressure application.

Even with the success of my setup, I would not be inclined to try the experiment in question by the OP exactly because of the reasons previously mentioned regarding tire structure and tire-rim interface.

tyrion

I doubt you'll find anyone that's tried it because, at that pressure (or anything close to it), it sounds so insane. Insanely unsafe.

squirtdad

fwiw I have used sealant in both tubular and clincher with tubes

Tubular i have had good success with sealant handling small punctures.

Clincher with tires and sealant has been mixed results,

I did not have much success at all with Vitorria Corsa G tires 28mm but I had horrible flat problems with those tires in general.

I had good success with GP5000 tires, with the sealant working on several small punctures

I have settled on effreto cafe latex sealant as what work for me (have used tufo, stans and orange seal)

observations:

PSI matters, especially in clincher tires. sealant seems to work better at lower psi (i.e 115 plus no luck)

Probably should not use sealant unless you are riding that wheelset reguarly

get extra valve cores, they will get gummed up

ymmv

urbanknight

Thanks. It's good to know. Just tempting right now since I'm still trying to learn tubeless and getting frustrated with every new hurdle (about to post a new thread right now, actually).
While I loved the Corsa tubulars back in the day, I also have had frequent flats and gashes with their clincher and tubeless versions.
All wheels with sealant in them get a good spin for a minute or two if they haven't been ridden in a week.
Trying to figure out what angle to store the stems at to avoid getting them gummed up, but already have a collection of cores salvaged from old tubes, and a spare set of stems ready to go.