Lazyass

I feel very little difference in steering. I'm one of those people who can fit a 54-57 bike. I prefer a shorter top tube with a longer stem because it's more stable when I'm out of the saddle climbing and sprinting with my weight more forward over the front wheel. If I were to have a custom frame built it would have a 56 ST/54 TT. Other people like Greg LeMond prefer a longer TT.

Jax Rhapsody

I never noticed any effect on steering by different length stems. I suppose if it were really long, like eight inches, one might. I think unless it was backwards, it's practically a trivial affair. The size of your bars has makes more difference.

What is it; narrow bars require more steering input, per turn, and wider bars give more steering with less input? That's why I put mtb bars on my cruisers, the general wide swept bars make them too twitchy to me, and mtb bars make the bike more stable. Of course some of those narrow fixie flat bars might make a bike twitchy too. The smaller the bar, the less mechanical leverage you have to turn.

PeteHski

Wider bars do have more leverage, but they require more hand displacement to turn. So as your bars get wider the steering feels lighter and less sensitive to small hand movements. The narrower the bars, the heavier and more sensitive the steering becomes.

Basically wider bars are more stable, all other things being equal. It’s very easy to feel this effect by just holding the bars close to the centre.

For this reason I’ve always preferred wide mtb bars and the trend has definitely gone toward much wider bars in recent years.

With road bike bars being much narrower than mtb, it makes sense that they have longer stems to help reduce sensitivity to hand movement and to make the steering a little lighter.

It also makes sense that stem lengths got shorter on MTBs as the bars got wider.

livedarklions

Keeping in mind that much of steering is done by leaning, I think the likelihood we're going to notice marginal differences in steering handlebar effort is going to vary a lot by how our body weight is distributed or any other factor that might affect the degree to which we rely on leaning over hand steering.

Also, handlebars are levers connected to a stem that is also a lever, and torque increases with the distance from the fulcrum. I think the math of having 2 different levers with two different fulcrums is complicated enough that it illustrates how bike fit is an art, not a science. This is always going to be a question of what balance feels right for you, and there's going to be no substitute for trial and error.

livedarklions

This makes a lot of sense to me--that the differences in posture and weight distribution are way more important than the relatively tiny differences in effort required to turn the bars. Even if one setup involves doubling the effort of turning the bars over the other, 2-3 times a really, really small number is still a really small number.

ClydeClydeson

I got a new (to me) fat bike just last week. Previous owner had put a stem riser and (I thought) very short stem. As soon as I got home I searched for and found a longer stem and swapped it out. When I say 'longer' I went from what was (I later discovered) the stock 60mm stem to a ridiculous 150mm 'fishing rod' from a previous lifetime. First ride I noticed I was stretched out more than ideal. THen I dove into the first trail I saw and discovered the real problem - the amount of movement at my hands way out on the end of that crazy long stem was so extreme that I was shoulder-checking every second tree that I thought I should be able to weave around without issue. Both my arms were absolutely coated with spruce sap by the time I got home, which soap and water does not wash off.

I put the 60mm stem back on and it felt a little cramped so I did a little do-se-do with the slightly longer stem with a bit of rise from another bike and LO! A med-short stem made the bike corner much more quickly than with the fishing rod. I may get a bar with a bit of rise and go back to the 60mm stem just to see how the manufacturer intended the bike to ride.

I tell this story because it is fresh in my mind and because it is a direct comparison of very long/short stem differences in terms of handling.

There are also other concerns like weight distribution and fit. Depending on the type of bike and type of riding you do, you might have to decide which of these concerns outweighs the other. For instance, on my touring bike I also have a 150mm stem, but the geometry of the bike means this doesn't make the bike too unwieldy, and since it primarily ridden on paved or hard surfaces, the F-R balance isn't crucial. The most important thing for that bike is that it fits my body well enough to spend hours per day without discomfort.

ClydeClydeson

Epilogue: Spruce gum can be cleaned off with alcohol-based hand sanitizer. THank Goodness for COVID or my arms would still be stuck to my bed sheets.

prj71

Newer bike geometry has been optimized for shorter stems. 50-70mm is the new norm on mountain/fat bikes. 60-90mm on road bikes.

150mm stems...just not a thing anymore.

Paul Barnard

I have never had much success with discussion when I do google searches.

prj71

No need for discussion when the facts, studies, trial and error have been done by other people.

One thing I've learned with forums is that people have become lazy. A Google search literally has information on anything and everything a person may want to know. But most are too lazy too look up information so they log onto forums to find their answers and get some validation.

One of my other hobbies if fly fishing and I participate in some fly fishing forums...The department of natural resources puts every trout stream in the state online as both PDF files and an interactive map...Yet there are select few that will log into the forums or facebook groups and ask where to go, what to do.

Paul Barnard

Mentioning leverage when discussing bar width is utterly laughable. It's not like the amount of leverage afforded by wider bars makes any difference at all. From a physics standpoint, how much easier would it be to move the bars of an 840mm than a 640mm? We can easily exert all the force we need to with a pinky finger.

PeteHski

It's only laughable if you think of leverage as some sort of limitation. I don't remember saying anything about not being able to exert enough force to move the bars. The steering simply feels lighter or heavier depending on bar width and the sensitivity to bar movement decreases with width. It's easy to feel the difference just by holding the bars closer to the centre. The steering weights up, but also becomes more sensitive to small movements. Does that not make sense?

PeteHski

Yeah, this was my point about wider mtb bars having shorter stems. Otherwise the effect of a wide bar plus a long stem makes the steering ridiculously light and slow. Your alternative here is to consider cutting your bars down a bit. A lot of mtbs these days come with extremely wide bars, that many people trim down a bit to suit. It's all personal preference, but you can easily test it by moving your brake levers slightly further inboard and gripping the bars an inch or more form the end. You will notice a difference in feel.

unterhausen

I think there is so much misinformation out on the internet about a lot of this stuff that a google search will just result in confusion. Even some of the people advocating a google search have posted mildly contradictory opinions. Bicycle stability and handling is a subject that has been discussed forever, and a lot of it is just received wisdom (i.e., something that might be true or might not, but is widely believed).

There is definitely a noticeable difference in handling with wider bars. The mtb world has gone to very high trail and that means wider bars are a lot more comfortable to control the flop. My gravel bike has narrow bars and higher than usual flop (for a road bike) and I have to relearn how to climb out of the saddle with it every spring. OTOH, the mtb world has also gone to very short stems so they can make the top tube longer. I'm sure you can find stuff through google that will tell you short stems are a bad idea and now they are great. Sometimes the industry does things for a good reason, sometimes it does things because they thought of a new marketing slant. But people get invested in the marketing slant either way.

PeteHski

The mtb geometry trends seem to be driven these days largely by enduro racing and bike parks. So now even an average trail bike looks like a full on DH rig from less than a decade ago. Ever longer, lower and slacker!

wider bars = lighter, slower steering and counteracts the heavier feedback of increased trail. I quite like that feel on our relatively slow technical singletrack. But harder to feed it through narrow gaps!

Trakhak

Good points about mountain bike geometry, stem length, and bar width for off-road riding. As I said in a post earlier in this thread, concerns about stem length only apply at low speed, since aiming the bike at any speed much above the equivalent of jogging speed means that you're leaning, not steering, but that just shows my road bike bias. Mountain bike riders, especially those riding single-track, can spend a pretty good amount of time at speeds below 10 mph, where geometry and stem length become much more important.

scottfsmith

Don't let people guilt you into thinking you need to live in the drops; its a personal thing depending on your body geometry etc. I only use them as a different position on long rides. I feel more in control on the hoods, you have more access to your muscles to shift your weight and make evasive moves if needed.

In the pre-disc era it was hard to get 100% out of your brakes sometimes on the hoods, but I never had that with disc brakes. The drops are not even the most aero position, if you are hunkered on the hoods (forearms level with the ground) you are more aerodynamic than in the drops. I now use that position more than the drops when there is a headwind.

DaveSSS 

Steering arm length is measured from the center of the steering tube to the point of hand contact with the bars or brake hoods. A little more stem length doesn't make much difference. You'll get used to any change you make quickly.

Bikes are not steered at high speed by leaning. Proper countersteering causes the bike to lean and turn. Those of us who have ridden a motorcycle extensively know that to turn right you push on the right side of the bar which rotates the steerer counter clockwise slightly and leans the bike to the right, to make a right turn. If you quit pushing the bike will straighten up all by itself. There's a long thread on this subject.

Trakhak

Not to reawaken that dreary subject, but whereas countersteering is likely necessary for motorcycles (I've noticed that the proponents of the idea here are mostly or maybe all motorcycle guys), it is possible but unnecessary for bicycles, which are a fraction of the rider's weight. Don't know how the countersteering mania started in here, especially given that riding around a corner no hands by merely leaning summarily disproves the hypothesis. (Retort: "Ah, but you begin the turn by subconsciously performing a subtle instantaneous twitch though the saddle that invisibly bumps the bars in the opposite direction before . . . .")

terrymorse 

Countersteering with the handlebars isn't merely possible on a bicycle. It is the predominant method for steering and balancing a bicycle.

Steering by shifting body weight is certainly possible on a bike, but (from what I have observed) seldom do people actually perform it (unless their hands are not on the bars), and most of those who say they steer with their bodies are actually handlebar steering but don't realize they are.

Except at slow speeds, handlebar steering inputs are tiny. That is why people don't notice they are doing them.

Jax Rhapsody

I remember that thread. That counter steering stuff is a tiny version of what we call in the commercial vehicle world; a jug handle turn. I don't do that unless I want a wider turn. I didn't do it on my scooter either.

livedarklions

So I'm pretty sure this is nonsense even on its own terms. The whole idea behind countersteering is that it initiates a lean of the body mass in the opposite direction of the steer, thereby making the bike turn into the direction of the lean. So really, this "debate" is over what the hands' role is in facilitating or compensating for the lean that actually accomplishes the high speed turn.

I do a lot of riding in same 23-25 mph range and I've been trying to understand how I turn since the endless countersteering thread. Whatever it is I'm doing doesn't seem to be initiated with my hands, but instead by moving my upper body into the direction of the turn followed by my hips. My guess is that people's turning methods vary widely with the way their body mass is distributed. Racers tend to have slight upper body mass, I don't.

That being said, there is a high speed turn that is clearly hand-dominated in my case--small adjustments to avoid potholes or obstacles. My sense is that I turn the bars in the direction of the steer, then countersteer to straighten out, but it really goes too fast to analyze at all.

I realize you can do this "you're mistaken about what you're really doing" stuff all day, but I don't see how that's any more likely than you're mistaken about what you are doing. As you point out, these are tiny hand movements made very quickly, and I think it's easy to believe that either one of us could be mistaken about their timing and function. I do believe I'm in a better position to describe what I'm doing than you are, however, and that you're in a better position to describe what you are doing than I am.

Road Fan

Yeah, I think collinear forces applied at points A, B, or C have the same effect on the steer tube, but only if the steer tube rotation is very small and the there is no lateral component to the force from your hand. For small-rotation assumption, we do that all the time when we ride a bike in a straight line, but rotations can be larger when making a turn. For the no-lateral force assumption, I'm not sure I can ride a bike and maintain that aspect of control. It certainly isn't usual to think about that, and I don't see any useful purpose to it.

terrymorse 

Have you negotiated a twisting road without using your hands to steer? I know people who can do it, but they are rare. Maybe livedarklions is one of them.

Based solely on my observation of a few thousand riders over 20 years or so, most people steer with their hands, most of the time.

DaveSSS 

Bicycles steer in the same manner as a motorcycle, but the force required to turn a bicycle is small compared to a motorcycle. Those who have never taken a motorcycle training course should try it. After completing the motorcycle training, you can apply it to your bicycle. One of the first things you'll discover is that the countersteering force does not just initiate a turn. If you ever let up on the pushing force required to turn, the bike or motorcycle will quit turning. A if that were not true, how would you change the turn radius? The answer is that you push harder to turn sharper or push with less force widen the turn. Speed changes also affect the turn radius. Slower speed tightens the turn. Faster widens the turn. Most single vehicle motorcycle wrecks occur when the rider fails to understand or apply these basic principles. Anyone who says that countersteering only initiates a turn is clueless.