Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Advocacy & Safety
Reload this Page >

Dutch perspective on cycling in the US

Notices
Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

Dutch perspective on cycling in the US

Old 07-10-13, 03:40 PM
  #426  
Jaywalk3r
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,033

Bikes: I own N+1 bikes, where N=0.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Rich Gibson View Post
Granted, but our 340 million people are distributed over a country which stretches over 3000 miles so there are tens of thousands of population centers of people who may/or may not limit their travel to short distances. Construction of a national integrated transportation system would involve essentially infinite amount of funding. Basically it looks good on an theoretical level. For the record I frequently travel outside the 14 miles and rarely have to go only 2 miles.
No one claims that people should use a bike to travel completely across the country. A huge portion of American trips are well with easy cycling distance. Further, these trips are often faster by bike than by car, making the bike more practical.

Sure, some trips are outside reasonable cycling range, but no one is advocating that cars be completely eliminated within the country.
Jaywalk3r is offline  
Old 07-10-13, 03:41 PM
  #427  
spare_wheel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267

Bikes: NA

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
the difference between a 25 pound commuter and a 45 pound commuter is well within normal variation of load weight...
Every day before I ride, I ask myself how many 5 lb sacks of flour I want to pack.

C'mon, find your spine, put on you big girl panties, and back up your trash talk.
I rate you an 8.5 overall but this flame is at best a 4.
spare_wheel is offline  
Likes For spare_wheel:
Old 07-10-13, 03:43 PM
  #428  
Jaywalk3r
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,033

Bikes: I own N+1 bikes, where N=0.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
I figured the Philippines would be too much, too hard for you.
Maybe they are, maybe they're not. I know nothing about the terrain there, just like you know nothing about the terrain here. The difference is that I don't claim that the Philippines are flat.

So, c'mon, put on your big girl pants and come ride here. Or won't your parents let you?
Jaywalk3r is offline  
Old 07-10-13, 03:44 PM
  #429  
CB HI
Cycle Year Round
 
CB HI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 13,643
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1314 Post(s)
Liked 91 Times in 58 Posts
Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
I rate you an 8.5 overall but this flame is at best a 4.
Sounds like a fun game "Rate the Troll".
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
CB HI is offline  
Likes For CB HI:
Old 07-10-13, 03:47 PM
  #430  
CB HI
Cycle Year Round
 
CB HI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 13,643
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1314 Post(s)
Liked 91 Times in 58 Posts
Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
Maybe they are, maybe they're not. I know nothing about the terrain there, just like you know nothing about the terrain here. The difference is that I don't claim that the Philippines are flat.

So, c'mon, put on your big girl pants and come ride here. Or won't your parents let you?
Actually, there are only two states that I have not traveled in, Maine and Michigan. So in fact I have seen the terrain in the big MO. Any street listings yet?
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
CB HI is offline  
Likes For CB HI:
Old 07-10-13, 03:48 PM
  #431  
Jaywalk3r
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,033

Bikes: I own N+1 bikes, where N=0.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by GP View Post
What is a stoppie? Is it stopping at a light?
It refers to stopping by braking hard enough to bring the rear wheel off the ground without the rider going over the bar. It's the fastest most bikes can be stopped by braking. (There are exceptions, such as recumbents, tandems, heavily loaded bikes, etc., on which the front brake does not provided sufficient braking capability to lift the bike.)
Jaywalk3r is offline  
Old 07-10-13, 03:52 PM
  #432  
RobertHurst
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Denver
Posts: 1,621
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times in 12 Posts
Originally Posted by genec View Post
You mean like a Cadillac of a car might be?
No... doesn't matter what kind of car you're talking about, the driver just sits there and the mechanism does almost all the work of turning the car, moving the car, stopping the car, and how the driver moves or carries his/her body weight is irrelevant. Bicycling is different, unfortunate though it may be for bicyclists who yearn to just sit on a big seat and pull levers as if they were driving.
RobertHurst is offline  
Likes For RobertHurst:
Old 07-10-13, 03:54 PM
  #433  
CB HI
Cycle Year Round
 
CB HI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 13,643
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1314 Post(s)
Liked 91 Times in 58 Posts
Originally Posted by RobertHurst View Post
Bicycling is different, unfortunate though it may be for bicyclists who yearn to just sit on a big seat and pull levers as if they were driving.
Yeah, just sucks the fun out of riding on two wheels.
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
CB HI is offline  
Likes For CB HI:
Old 07-10-13, 04:00 PM
  #434  
RobertHurst
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Denver
Posts: 1,621
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times in 12 Posts
Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
It refers to stopping by braking hard enough to bring the rear wheel off the ground without the rider going over the bar. It's the fastest most bikes can be stopped by braking. (There are exceptions, such as recumbents, tandems, heavily loaded bikes, etc., on which the front brake does not provided sufficient braking capability to lift the bike.)
If you're pulling the brake lever while plopped unmoving like a sack of flower on a bike seat, you'll have plenty of opportunity to practice stoppies, and crashes too.
RobertHurst is offline  
Likes For RobertHurst:
Old 07-10-13, 04:00 PM
  #435  
Jaywalk3r
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,033

Bikes: I own N+1 bikes, where N=0.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by RobertHurst View Post
In the real world, the bike which is comfortable for long distances is also comfortable for short distances. What is so hard to understand about that?
Because it isn't true. Reality cannot be simplified to that extent.

Take, for example, a beach cruiser with a big, heavily padded saddle. For the first 1-3 miles, such a bike would be incredibly comfortable, far more than a road bike or a mountain bike. However, on a 50 mile ride, the beach cruiser would be unlikely to be more comfortable than a well fitted road bike or rigid mountain bike.

Originally Posted by RobertHurst View Post
Don't take my word for it, try it yourself.

When you get off the saddle and put your weight on the pedals, you separate the body from the bike, and instantly gain control, whereas with the body attached to the bike, the bike controls you. Beyond that, you're not above the saddle, but behind it and actually below it for the hard stop. Throwing the body weight back at the right moment is critical for a panic stop. Can't do it while sitting on the seat like a barstool, obviously.
Braking performance doesn't improve because the rider rises off the saddle. If that is all that occurred, braking performance would be diminished. Braking performance increases only when the rider moves back or lower, which is what Riel says, but not what you initially wrote. Many bikes allow the rider to slide fore and aft on the saddle, without needing to first rise up.
Jaywalk3r is offline  
Old 07-10-13, 04:02 PM
  #436  
spare_wheel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267

Bikes: NA

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
put on your big girl pants and come ride here.
put on you big girl panties, and back up your trash talk.
What did "big girls" do to you jaywalk3r?
spare_wheel is offline  
Old 07-10-13, 04:03 PM
  #437  
Jaywalk3r
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,033

Bikes: I own N+1 bikes, where N=0.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by RobertHurst View Post
Another completely incorrect statement. The difference between a reasonably light bike and a very heavy one is obvious and completely changes the character of the ride.

I'm not saying you can't have fun on a heavy, slow bike or get a lot of stuff done. I have myself. But it is very different. People would know that if they had tried both types of bicycle.
Heavier bikes are slower only in the sense that they don't accelerate as quickly, but the difference is far less than many people, like yourself, imagine. In reality, if you can't ride fast on a heavy bike, you can't ride fast on a light bike, either. It's all about the engine.
Jaywalk3r is offline  
Old 07-10-13, 04:08 PM
  #438  
Jaywalk3r
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,033

Bikes: I own N+1 bikes, where N=0.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
Actually, there are only two states that I have not traveled in, Maine and Michigan. So in fact I have seen the terrain in the big MO.
Missouri contains a wide variety of terrain, from flat to mountains. Clearly, you haven't ridden in this part of the state, if you think it's flat. Where did you ride, the Katy Trail?
Jaywalk3r is offline  
Old 07-10-13, 04:11 PM
  #439  
Jaywalk3r
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,033

Bikes: I own N+1 bikes, where N=0.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by RobertHurst View Post
If you're pulling the brake lever while plopped unmoving like a sack of flower on a bike seat, you'll have plenty of opportunity to practice stoppies, and crashes too.
That's exactly why stoppies should be practiced, so that when a short stop is required, one does not panic and do exactly as you describe.
Jaywalk3r is offline  
Old 07-10-13, 04:22 PM
  #440  
squirtdad
Senior Member
 
squirtdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: San Jose (Willow Glen) Ca
Posts: 7,605

Bikes: 85 team Miyata (modern 5800 105) , '84 Team Miyata,(dura ace old school) '82 nishiski,

Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1383 Post(s)
Liked 683 Times in 471 Posts
Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
It refers to stopping by braking hard enough to bring the rear wheel off the ground without the rider going over the bar. It's the fastest most bikes can be stopped by braking. (There are exceptions, such as recumbents, tandems, heavily loaded bikes, etc., on which the front brake does not provided sufficient braking capability to lift the bike.)
That is completely wrong in refrence to being the fast way to stop a bike. Keeping both tires on the ground doubling the area of contact is far more effective than locking the front wheel and lifting the back tire. and moving your weight back on the bike is helps with this.
__________________
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
squirtdad is offline  
Old 07-10-13, 05:10 PM
  #441  
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 26,719

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10336 Post(s)
Liked 2,353 Times in 1,626 Posts
Originally Posted by RobertHurst View Post
No... doesn't matter what kind of car you're talking about, the driver just sits there and the mechanism does almost all the work of turning the car, moving the car, stopping the car, and how the driver moves or carries his/her body weight is irrelevant. Bicycling is different, unfortunate though it may be for bicyclists who yearn to just sit on a big seat and pull levers as if they were driving.
Hmmm, while essentially true... cyclists are indeed fully involved in the handling of their two wheeled vehicles; the fact is that the weight, length and width of a car like a Cadillac does give it certain performance perimeters that makes the vehicle handle differently from say a 'Vette or a Ford Focus... so in fact, while the car does "almost all the work," the driver must still compensate for the size and weight in some manner, "however slight."

I am often reminded of this when I occasionally borrow my wife's Land Cruiser of some 6000 lbs GVW... indeed it handles quite differently than my old '91 Toyota Hilux. One might even say that the difference is akin to moving from my Giant Trance X2 to my Huffy beach cruiser... the handling is quite different, in spite of the fact that both bikes have "fat tires."
genec is online now  
Old 07-10-13, 05:18 PM
  #442  
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 26,719

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10336 Post(s)
Liked 2,353 Times in 1,626 Posts
Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
Heavier bikes are slower only in the sense that they don't accelerate as quickly, but the difference is far less than many people, like yourself, imagine. In reality, if you can't ride fast on a heavy bike, you can't ride fast on a light bike, either. It's all about the engine.
Keep in mind that the acceleration of which you speak occurs in more than the forward direction... you can't throw a heavy bike around as easily as a light bike, and certainly climbing hills on a heavy bike takes more of an engine.

I have done fully loaded touring, and the mass difference with a loaded bike is vastly different than that of a light bike, and thus the rider responds in a vastly different way... you are somewhat right in that once up to speed it takes about the same amount of effort to maintain that speed... on a flat level surface, with issues like wind resistance (cyclists position -- tucked or upright) and rolling resistance (fat tires, skinny tires, high pressure, low pressure, etc) being the biggest contributing factors to maintaining a certain speed.
genec is online now  
Old 07-10-13, 05:27 PM
  #443  
RobertHurst
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Denver
Posts: 1,621
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times in 12 Posts
Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
Any half decent mountain biker knows this. For some reason it takes road cyclist much longer to learn and clearly, some NEVER do learn.
Mountain biking does have a way of teaching the universal truths of bicycle handling in a quick and memorable fashion.
RobertHurst is offline  
Old 07-10-13, 05:35 PM
  #444  
RobertHurst
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Denver
Posts: 1,621
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times in 12 Posts
Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
That's exactly why stoppies should be practiced, so that when a short stop is required, one does not panic and do exactly as you describe.
All that practicing stoppies and you never figured out how much easier it is to stop and control the bike if you're not sitting on the seat?
RobertHurst is offline  
Old 07-10-13, 05:54 PM
  #445  
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 26,719

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10336 Post(s)
Liked 2,353 Times in 1,626 Posts
Originally Posted by RobertHurst View Post
Mountain biking does have a way of teaching the universal truths of bicycle handling in a quick and memorable fashion.
Ain't that the truth. Those falls become quite memorable.
genec is online now  
Old 07-10-13, 06:57 PM
  #446  
cyclingdutchman
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
Heavier bikes are slower only in the sense that they don't accelerate as quickly, but the difference is far less than many people, like yourself, imagine. In reality, if you can't ride fast on a heavy bike, you can't ride fast on a light bike, either. It's all about the engine.
In the city if you want to go from A to B it makes a big difference, as you have to accelerate quite often. So it also very much depends on the context.
cyclingdutchman is offline  
Old 07-10-13, 07:03 PM
  #447  
buzzman
----
 
buzzman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Newton, MA
Posts: 4,574
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Whew! This thread needs separated tracks to keep all the topics in line!

I'm not sure if this is back on topic but spare_wheel makes an interesting point about "gentrification" and bike lanes that is perhaps a very American dilemma.

Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
There has been a very tight correlation between gentrification and cycling infrastructure in PDX and other cities. There has also been targeting of newer and fancier cycling infrastructure to wealthy or gentrifying areas of Manhattan and Brooklyn. This is completely unacceptable, in my opinion.
The issues I've seen regarding bike lanes/gentrification has less to do with economically challenged areas being denied newer or fancier infrastructure but that those communities feel they have greater needs that need to be addressed and often see the imposition of bike infrastructure in their neighborhoods as a precursor or as a result of gentrification and as a failure to address the more pressing issues that have existed in their community for some time. These are legitimate complaints and it is sometimes patronizing to feel these communities need to be "educated" as to how economically beneficial it may be for members of the community to consider biking as a means of transportation.

I'm theorizing here but it may have to do with the American predeliction to see cycling as a sport or a means of conveyance of a certain professional class as a hobby as opposed to a necessity. In poorer communities car ownership is often seen as a status symbol and biking is equated with poverty, DWI's and low status.

While I find articles like this one encouraging to some extent it can be alienating and help foster cycling only as a past time of the elite-

https://www.economist.com/blogs/prosp...ess-networking

In countries where cycling is incorporated into the transportation landscape regardless of economic status and all kind of bikes and riders are accepted, whether in their work jeans and boots on a Walmart special or a custom made ride to work bike this resistance to infrastructure and bikes is less pronounced.


Organizations like Recycle a Bicycle in NYC, Bikes not Bombs in Boston and World Bicycle Relief- world wide, promote cycling as a means of combating poverty and an economically beneficial way for people to get around.


For me, personally, I've been cycling since I was riding both for pleasure and because it was the cheapest way for me to get around. It still saves me money but I could now afford to drive and own a car if I so desired as well as own a much fancier commuting bike than I currently use but I resist both and am frequently perceived as someone who rides purely out of economic necessity.

Last edited by buzzman; 07-10-13 at 10:38 PM.
buzzman is offline  
Old 07-10-13, 09:35 PM
  #448  
CB HI
Cycle Year Round
 
CB HI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 13,643
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1314 Post(s)
Liked 91 Times in 58 Posts
Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
Missouri contains a wide variety of terrain, from flat to mountains. Clearly, you haven't ridden in this part of the state, if you think it's flat. Where did you ride, the Katy Trail?
No street names yet?

Your amazing, you cover the entire state each day on your daily commute of 2 miles, but only manage to get 4 - 5,000 yearly miles?

PS - 2,000 feet are foothills, not mountains
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
CB HI is offline  
Old 07-10-13, 09:49 PM
  #449  
CB HI
Cycle Year Round
 
CB HI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 13,643
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1314 Post(s)
Liked 91 Times in 58 Posts
Though Taum Sauk Mountain is the highest mountain in Missouri, it is not the most prominent. Taum Sauk rises 522 feet (159 m) from an already elevated base.[5] The most prominent peak in the state is Mudlick Mountain which rises 693 feet (211 m) from a lower base to an elevation of 1,313 feet (400 m).[6]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taum_Sauk_Mountain

So your most impressive "mountain" is 693 feet of climbing. Equal to my climb from Pearl Harbor Middle Lock to Mililani. Do you climb Mudlick Mountain on your daily commute?

It appears that you are not even allowed to cycle to the "peak".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_A._Baker_State_Park
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

Last edited by CB HI; 07-10-13 at 10:00 PM.
CB HI is offline  
Old 07-10-13, 09:55 PM
  #450  
dynodonn 
Banned.
 
dynodonn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: U.S. of A.
Posts: 7,464
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1253 Post(s)
Liked 28 Times in 26 Posts
Originally Posted by CB HI View Post


PS - 2,000 feet are foothills, not mountains
Missouri, lowest point 230ft above sea level, highest point 1772 ft above sea level, average height above sea level, 800 ft. If you needed to know.
dynodonn is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.