berlinonaut

One question: Did you ever do self-supported touring on a Brompton? If not - how can you judge on it?
Internal gear hubs: In general they are considered to be reliable and easier to live with with less attention than derailleur setups. Three to four things speak against them: Weight, efficiency, limited gear range and trouble in case of a defect. Regarding defects: three speed hubs have been built for more than 100 years and they turned out to be pretty bullet proof.
Without any maintenance for decades, let alone yearly greasing. A three speed hub is pretty efficient and relatively light, this is why the Brompton halfstep-setup with a three-speed hub plus derailleur gears is cumbersome on first look but a pragmatic and good approach in practice. Even not top-notch hubgears like a 7-speed Shimano last quite a while - 20k km or similar w/o maintenance are common and this is way more than the typical bike they are used in is ever ridden. A Rohloff hub is almost as effective as a perfectly adjusted and perfectly clean derailleur setup (which you will barely have in practice).
While with derailleur setups if the **** hits the fan you are as doomed as with hub gears - modern derailleurs are pretty complex, the variety is excessive and parts not commonly available in a shop's cupboard.

Panniers are not needed on a Brompton (and btw: if you insist on them there are some that you could use. Still I would not recommend it). Touring on a folder and even more touring on a Brompton requires overcoming prejudices and opening up your mind. The reward is that you'll end up with new possibilites that you never dared to dream of with a conventional bike. Look i.e. at the setup of the pathless pedaled people. They have been touring on their Bromptons excessively and while they are the most prominent ones there are hundreds if not thousands of people that did the same. Using a backpack on the rear rack instead of panniers opens a lot of options in combination with a small fold, to give you a hint.
Regarding panniers you should mention that heel clearance is a problem with folders, 16" as well as 20". There are folders and racks out there where this is not the case, but this is not as common as one would hope.

joey buzzard

Not true! Swiftfolders.com still builds and ships bikes using exactly the same frame as what Xootr used to build their model. I myself bought a frameset from them last year for USD$450 to build a second bike. For a lot less than US$2000, the proprietor and designer Peter will build and ship a bike to one's specifications, so I think the bike is well worth a mention on this thread.



Also, while I agree with you that many folders (such as Bromptons) are better at folding small so that they fit onto crowded public transpo, the Swift isn't so bad. It folds down in seconds and has a slender profile in its folded state as it doesn't double over on itself sideways; because of this I've found that sometimes it fits surprisingly well in a lot of tight narrow spots. Twice this past year I've packed it into a suitcase and taken it with me on trips abroad (Mexico and Montreal). On both journeys I combined cycling with various modes of public transportation. In every instance the Swift worked whether it was on the metro in Montreal or else under the rear seat in a collectivo mini bus in Quintana Roo. Whenever I put the crossrack on and loaded the bike to ride it long distances it felt good, balanced and not much slowed down. Unloaded and with the rack off it was just damn fun to zip around on in less familiar surroundings. If I were headed to Europe I'd want a Swift under me for the journey. I took a trip from England across to the Netherlands and then Germany, Denmark up to Sweden not so many years ago. I had a a road bike with me, cycling some and taking trains part of the distance. I know having any sort of a bike on trains isn't going to be much of an issue over there. Just make sure you buy a special ticket for the bike when it's required. I got burned for not having one of those in Sweden.

Duragrouch

The internal hub gear manufacturers themselves recommend against high vertical or thrust loads on their hubs. But they are robustly engineered for low warranty, and wide use on rental bikes, so might not break. I always assume stuff can break on a long tour, most especially overseas, so my concerns are less about whether it will break, but how repairable it is, always assuming it may break, and especially so, the less standard (widely used) the hub is. I think IGH hub repair availability is spotty, and the next best option, wheel replacement, is equally spotty for a Brompton real wheel, it's not as common as a 26" rim with a Shimano IGH.

If an IHG has an external lube port, annual teardown is much less required. I recently acquired a 3 speed IGH folder with no such lube port, operating manual said "permanently lubed", I consulted a repair shop well versed in IGHs and they called B.S. on that, and have photos on their website of hubs that do not get lubed:

https://www.rideyourbike.com/internalgears.shtml

A backpack (in lieu of panniers), vertically attached behind the seat on a Brompton is intriguing to me for versatility, mixing biking with backpacking jaunts. But the center of mass will be higher, and it's harder to secure the pack from flopping laterally. With an extra-large handlebar bag like Brompton makes, there may be sufficient volume. Many have toured with a Brompton.

As I have said, a Brompton is a fabulous piece of engineering and build quality. I wish it did function great for heavy loads on self-supported touring, because its advantages of compact size are enormous; I've seen them brought on flights as carry-on luggage and stored in the overhead, that's amazing, and precludes the need for a large suitcase (which is always a problem to store when touring). I'm on your side. But I cannot ignore some (perceived) weaknesses based on the design factors.

I'm enthusiastic about the new Helix folder (24" wheels), it may have the potential to be the ultimate touring folder.

tds101 

I forgot about Peter. If the website is still up please post the link. I seem to have lost it.

As to travel on mass transit, I would also know about the Swift, as I'm a former owner myself. I guess internationally it's different, but here in NYC on buses, and on the LIRR, it's not so easy. And some states ban any bike that isn't a "true folder", and the Swift is often times considered a non-folder by drivers and conductors. I do know that there's really no comparing a Swift to most folders ride quality wise, and the Swift is the only bike I've sold that I miss, but if I were travel abroad myself, I'd take a smaller folding/packing bike.

reppans

FWIW, the Brompton is the ONLY bike that got me back into self-supported bicycle touring (CLICKY) - something that I quit decades ago due to lock-up outside theft worries, having to ride dangerous high traffic roads and in lousy weather, and inability to carry everything long distance (eg, 1/2 mile bushwhacking to stealth camping).

I have a Dahon Speed P8, I actually chose it over the Brompton over a decade ago... but then I ended up buying Brompton in 2016 anyways. WOW what a difference - I adore the Brompton (may buy more soon) and will be getting rid of all my other bicycles (in the process of downsizing my life). The only three things I prefer my Speed P8 for are: the straight sequential shifting/gearing; riding on loose surfaces like gravel, sand, muddy ground, and even then 20" ballon tires are no picnic; and of course for locking up outside - nobody would want to steal it, don't care if it gets stolen, and too much hassle to fold take with me. Every other aspect (too long to list), the Brompton wins and usually by a wide margin....... for me that is, YMMV.

I maintain my bikes well... never had a failure on the road other than flat tires. Actually the Dahon is a fine bike, I used to like it a lot, but after experiencing all those things that the Brompton excels at, it just started me scratching my head with the Dahon, even to point of despising certain things about it... like the 3 step handlebar fold which is a hassle and introduces looseness/play into the steering.

2bridges1bike

Would the swift be ok to get through the narrow subway turnstiles? I am thinking to get one and take it on the PATH from NJ which does not have the as good access as the NYC subways.

fietsbob

hold it high above the turnstile, perhaps.. ? drop it ahead of you then go through?

Duragrouch

I first had an original Dahon (the 30 year old ones) about 10 years ago, got it for $5 because only second gear worked. Had it locked up outside a place late at night, it was pretty junky looking and even it got stolen, they drilled a good U-lock. I think they stole it just for the rear rack which was heavy duty but height adjustable, I had a recycling crate wired to it, made a great townie. So a P8 is definitely a theft target. Even easier if a bike folds, they don't need a van.

I related to you downsizing, my other bikes have sentimental value so will keep, but I do everything on my Dahon now. I just really need to mount a triple crank to deal with the steep hills here. I had been just walking them up but that has given me plantar faciitis and now I think heel spurs, I'm waiting on a doctor appointment.

I recently picked up a Dahon Vitesse 3, like new, guy bought it for bus commuting for new job and once relocated here, found that all the buses have racks for his mountain bike. Immaculate, still has the nibs on the tires. But I don't want to use it much before doing a good rear hub lube, I just printed out the 130 page SRAM technical service manual and got the gear lube and marine grease recommended. But a short ride told me it just doesn't have the low gear range I need. It'll be used for light travel like train trip with city touring, no racks.

tds101 

As suggested above, carry it through, or pay, then open the exit gate and bring it in. As long as you can get it to the other side, it's all good!

linberl

I don't know how narrow the NY turnstiles are but I've found the best way to get my pakiT through here is to leave it unfolded, roll back onto the rear wheel so the bike is vertical and it fits though. I fold after the turnstile. If you have folding pedals, this works even better.

joey buzzard

I`ve never been on PATH but my Swift rolled through the turnstiles on the Montreal Metro just fine last summer. If for some reason regulations force you to fold before entering the turnstile I think this would be no biggie as it`s possible to sort of wheelbarrow a Swift in its folded state. I`d totally recommend the Swift if having a really nice riding bike that can easily be a speed and distance machine is important to you.

tds101 

Here's a video showing a review of the bike. Nothing has changed much, except a new 1 will be custom geared (derailleur, single speed, or internal gear hub), and it will be a cromoly steel frame,...


PS: the handlebar stem was improved,...I missed that fact.

joey buzzard

Actually, the frames Peter and Swift Folders use to build bikes with these days are aluminium and identical to the frames used to build the last batch of Xootr Swifts in every way except that they are powder coated black and say: "swift folder" on the side instead of "XOOtr swift". When my frame set arrived from Swift Folders it even came packaged in a box with the Xootr logo on it. The serial number on my silver Xootr Swift which I've had almost 3 years is: 0613000 and my recently acquired black Swift Folder's serial number is: 06130250


The chromoly frames haven't been available for years now, except perhaps by special order bespoke from Jan Vander Tuin in Oregon.

tds101 

So, it's exactly like the bike I had - only mine was blue, and I had a custom NuVinci N360 CVT hub in the back. I may have to look into getting a frame then. Do you have the link to the website?

BromptonINrio

there is a zero missing or they put up 6.000.000 bikes in 3 years? i highly doubt

linberl

When I was looking for my very first folder, it came down to the Xootr and BF. A car shop near me was owned by a bike fanatic, and he had a xootr swift, so he "sometimes" sold them for Xootr. I went over and was going to test ride his but the seat post was way to big for me. Heh, no problem, it's a car shop - he grabbed a tube and cut a post to fit me and off
I went of my ride. I was really impressed. I ended up going with BF because the type of fold worked better for me for my uses, but I still think fondly of that Swift. I rode a lot of folders before I settled on those two for my final decision - and the Swift was the only one I rode that felt as good as the Friday. If I hadn't found a nice used Friday at a very reasonable price I could easily have ended up with a Swift; for the price I thought it was exceptional. Was sad to see them stop making them.

maggiemaecra

I have a couple of used Bike Fridays I am considering selling. I'm also trying to get my posts up to 10 so I can send and receive private messages.

linberl

post them on the bike friday facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/groups/bike...d=177147215204) and the google yak for BF (https://groups.google.com/a/bikefrid...um/#!forum/yak)

m56ewt

Which is a better bike with better components?
The Dahon Vigor D9
The Dahon Vigor P9
The Dahon Mu D10 Tour

dahoneezz

Back end of the Vigor is a triangular frame. So the frame config is better to me. No idea on the components.

joey buzzard

I'm still too new to post links for another couple of posts, but www.swiftfolders.com should take you there.

tds101 

2 more posts and your a full fledged BF member. I see the contact email listed, so I guess that's the way to contact Peter for a Swift frame?

PS: for the Changebike fans,...

joey buzzard

Yes, you can contact Peter through that website. He`s very personable.

m56ewt

Anybody know component wise which bike is better. I'm hearing P is better then D, so its between the Dahon Vigor P9 and the Dahon Mu D10.

The Dahon Vigor D9
The Dahon Vigor P9
The Dahon Mu D10 Tour

linberl

The expert is Thor. I'd say call him again and ask but maybe not if you're then gonna go buy cheaper elsewhere. That's not too cool.