locolobo13 

It's been a long time since I even thought about the mechanics of steering on a bike. So I watched myself yesterday. On the way home most of my turns were by simply turning the handlebars in the direction I wanted to go, just like a car. Then lean the bike and/or body to keep it balanced. Of course those turns were all under 10 mph.

Years ago when I rode a motorcycle and first read about countersteering I thought, "Cool!" Started consciously practicing it. On a motorcycle, you can countersteer completely thru the turn when doing high speed turns. On a bicycle it took more practice for me.

Wrote this mainly to say you don't necessarily have to countersteer. If you've been turning without trouble don't worry about it. 99.9% of the time I turn without thinking about it.

Happy Feet

You have confused me because you seem to be saying counter steering is very common and that it's almost impossible to steer with bars otherwise.

I posted two videos showing myself doing just that. Running long courses with many turns not counter steering. If you watch the first one there are many examples of bar steering withour counter steering first.

Now you seem to be saying I can turn without counter steering because.. I'm not using the bars?

While downhill mountain Biking?
Thanks, really, but I'm not that good.

Who steers without shifting body weight at all, even when using bars? That would be like trying to ride like a tricycle. Everybody leans into a turn in some fashion.

But.. if that's the case for doing it, then counter steering is an uncommon tactic, as I said before, for banking into steep turns or countering rear wheel drift.

In a steep turn without drift you micro counter steer to maintain or adjust the turn radius relative to your lean.

terrymorse 

The "bar steering without counter steering first" you describe is actually you using your body to lean the bike, followed by a turn of the bars into the turn. That "lean then steer" action is necessary, simple physics demands it.

Once again: Turning a bicycle with just the handlebars (no body lean) requires countersteering. There is literally no other way to do it.

Follow a skilled cyclist down a fast, twisting descent. She will initialte each turn with a noticeable countersteer.

njkayaker

People are probably countersteering even if they think they aren't. It doesn't have to be a drastic maneuver.

https://www.renehersecycles.com/myth...untersteering/

(Countersteering is going on even when going straight.)

terrymorse 

Good point, thanks. We always countersteer to maintain balance, but the movements are usually too small to notice.

Happy Feet

I just want to clarify.

1. Are you saying the first video wasn't someone going down a twisting descent.. and if I went faster would I lean less? That this was an uncommon way to descend?

2. That skilled cyclists go down fast twisting descents without leaning into turns? Please show the video of that. I don't think skilled riders descend without leaning.

9

unterhausen

I would like to see a video like Happy Feet's where the person visibly countersteers. I would have to say his steering is a little sloppy, but I don't know if that is related to his lack of countersteering.

njkayaker

3. You are countersteering but don't realize it. It doesn't have to be a big thing at all.

njkayaker

Happyfeet's handlebars are going back-and-forth pretty regularly. That's visible countersteer (not necessarily to initiate a turn). He also appears to be going pretty slow for the turns the video shows (and the turns aren't that sharp for the speed he's going).

https://www.renehersecycles.com/myth...untersteering/

(Posted earlier.)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PHAjoFadDQ

https://youtu.be/OXkxhpq3LBQ

GhostRider62

I can turn a bike riding no hands never touching the bars, so can this guy.

njkayaker

You can countersteer (and make the bars rotate) without touching the bars.

Countersteering is about the direction of the wheel. Not pushing or pulling the bars.

livedarklions

I used to be great at it when I was young, but now my brain tells me quite clearly don't try this. The inner ear fluid actually thickens as people get older, and I'm just not sure of that level of balancing skills.

terrymorse 

The first video was someone going down a twisting descent. If you went faster, your lean angle would have to increase, or you would fall over.

No.

No, they use a combination of body lean and countersteer. As all cyclists do. The most skilled will transition from straightaway to tight curves using pronounced countersteer. It's faster.

Everybody uses countersteer. If they didn't, they would lose stability in very short order and be on the ground.

Happy Feet

It's a rigid geometry 26" bike with a suspension fork added after the fact. Very twitchy.

I could post multiple videos like them, all showing steering without counter steering. I would also like to see a counter video. We can talk all we want but the stem in my videos gives a pretty clear indication of what is happening.

unterhausen

The funny thing about that countersteering 101 video is the cyclist at 2:23 doesn't countersteer to get ready to face the camera. And I don't think the motorcyclist just before that countersteers in his turn to face the camera either, but that's harder to see.

The advanced descending video is interesting as well. Anyone that has ridden many switchbacks will go wide (opposite the turn) just before the turn in order to take the widest radius through the apex. It's natural to let your body go straight to the inside of the turn when doing that initial turning out. So you might think I was intentionally countersteering. I want a thought bubble over my head that says, "not countersteering."

GhostRider62

I don't recall mentioning countersteering.

People who think consciously about controlling steering mechanics at speed are squirrels I do not want to follow. Steering should subconscious. I have a very floppy, long wheelbase high racer recumbent that I never worry someone is going to steal because so few could ride it. They would be bloody. I have some very long trail, floppy bikes and a criterium bike or two. They handle dramatically different. All are still subject to Newton's Third law. Conservation of momentum....if the bike needs to be leaned right, something has to go left. On one bike, if I want to turn right no hands, the left nut is sufficient to balance the equation. Other bikes require some footwork. Anyone who has to think this thru while riding should might prolly spend some time in a parking lot

njkayaker

??? No, he didn't say that.

Again, countersteering is done before (at the start of the turn). It's very brief,

Happy Feet

Yep. You are describing a counter to attack at a steeper angle by moving the start of the turn outboard more. That's a thing but only for sharp turns.

Happy Feet

Did you watch the video? Where are all the subtle counter turns?

njkayaker

I don't recall anybody saying the handlebars don't move unless you use your hands either.

No is really talking about "thinking consciously" all the time.

To get better at many things, people "think consciously" when learning and practicing.

Just like people learn how to ride in the first place.

njkayaker

Did you? Your handlebar is rotating almost all the time! They aren't only turning in the direction of turns.

Again, you are countersteering regularly without knowing you are doing it.

Happy Feet

At 1:48 of the first video I turn left with the bars. Where's the counter steer?

Happy Feet

No, I'm balancing a twitchy bike. It has nothing to do with initating turns.

njkayaker

It's a very slow speed turn. You are very upright through it. You might not need any real countersteering for it.

You make a slowish, long-radius turn to the right at 1:40. There's bit of countersteer at the start of it. It's often something people are not aware of doing.

You countersteer at the start of the turn at 2:58

You countersteer at the start of the turn at 3:39 (there's another countersteer in the middle of the turn).


That's countersteering too.

terrymorse 

You could post as many videos as you want showing what you think is steering without counter steering.

But "steering without counter steering" is also known as "falling down while riding a bike".