DaveWC

On 7/23 I tested my FTP at 268 watts or 3.19 watts/kg and then began to train rather than just ride as hard as possible on each given day. I'm doing recovery rides on Mon/Fri, short intervals (10-20 seconds) on Tue, fast tempo ride Wed, longer intervals on Thu (1 minute) and 80-100km endurance rides on Sat/Sun. My FTP has steadily risen and today I had a PB at 305 watts or 3.63 watts/kg. I was dying during the last 5 minutes, basically doing 15 second intervals to get my power up to 700 and then recovering for 20 seconds & doing it again. I've estimated my max HR at 180 but never got over 171 and today the last 5 minutes I kept touching 178. I was ready to puke when I was done. I couldn't have ridden close to this wattage when I began and my finish in the earlier tests was one of running out of steam for the last 5 minutes, no way was I going to do any intervals at that point. So in my experience, interval training has had a big impact on my overall speed & endurance. Last weekend I also had a pb for the metric century so it's helping with endurance as well.

Homebrew01

You're doing intervals during an FTP test ?

DaveWC

Not intentionally. When I hit the last 5 minutes I was dying, trying to keep my watts over about 310. So I was standing up and pounding and then sitting & recovering, doing it over & over until the time was up. It was easier than keeping my watts at the 320 I was shooting for. I just checked & in the end I did 14 short intervals in the last 6 minutes.

gregf83 

That's a tough way to do a 20 min test!

Congrats on the improvement, but once you figure out how to apply steady power you should be able to get a higher number in your test.

The fastest way to TT (or do a 20 min test) is to put out constant power. If your pacing is correct you shouldn't be able to crank out 700W for 15S. You might try changing your cadence if you're having trouble holding power.

DaveWC

You're right. I probably should have dropped a gear & kicked up the cadence. I tend to average 79-80 and could probably push more power if I upped the cadence.

Elduderino2412

i started doing intervals on my trainer, and in one month i increased my FTP probably more than the last 3 months

Homebrew01

I do around 100 rpm ... just feels right.

gregf83 

For reference, I know everyone is different, but Cancellara does his TTs at around 110RPM. Your HR will be higher but your legs might feel better.

Elduderino2412

I do around 90 outside, but on a trainer for some reason i do about 70. I just use a harder gear. Not sure why. maybe b/c subconsciously i'm not moving i pedal slower.

hhnngg1

There's no way you can average higher wattage with supermax sprints with rests in between, even if they're short. Bursts of 700+ watts back down to sub 150 are the WORST way to get your FTP.

Do it right next time and try and hold a steady state for the 2 x 30 or 1 x 60 minute test. It should feel a bit on the easy side in the first 15 minutes, pretty tough by 30 minutes, painful by 45 minutes, and near death by the end. If done properly, your FTP should be higher from doing the sprints you're doing. Which is why in pro TTs, you don't see people sprinting for 400 yards then slowing down and then repeating.

Also if your FTP tests are under 20 minutes long, they're probably not legit. Go longer, pace better, and you'll have a more meaningful training number than what you're getting now.

DaveWC

I agree, it wasn't a good way. But it was the only way I was going to finish as high as I did. You can't say that there's no way I can average higher wattage with sprints if I'm telling you that I just did. I averaged 318 for the first 15 minutes and pushed that to 321 for the total 20 minutes. My point was that because of the interval training I have been doing I was able to do it.

There is no "right" way, there are different ways. I did it for 20 minutes, multiplied the resulting watts by 95% to estimate the FTP.

It was a 20 minute test. Given that all of my FTP tests have been 20 minutes, the improvement is meaningful.

achoo

That's because all you've been doing with your short intervals is developing your anaerobic power.

Try doing that hammer/rest for an hour or two and see where you wind up.

Umm, no.

Extend your FTP test to 30 min and see what you get. Better yet, try a full hour and forget the multiplying.

You'd do better doing longer intervals - without ANY stops. 10-min, 20-min, and even longer intervals where you put your power at, say, 280W and leave it right there. As another poster noted earlier, a trainer is GREAT for that.

gregf83 

Short intervals, though sometimes painful, are also helpful for FTP.

Like Dave said, there is no right way. If you're going to test it's really only necessary to be consistent. A 20 min test is just fine for setting training levels.

You really don't even need to test at all, as intervals tend to be self-adjusting. If you're used to doing 2x20s at a particular level and they start to feel easier, just bump the target up by 5-10W. It's not necessary to constantly test your FTP.

DaveWC

Not sure how you can tell that that's all I've been doing. I did do 3 hours non-stop on Sat at NP of 255 watts with a best 20 mins of 273 watts within that time. I have also done steady state 20 mins at 280 watts.

Umm no what? No that's not a valid method of estimating FTP? It is according to Coggan in Training & Racing with a Power Meter.

Creatre

You need a coach my friend.

The way you tested your FTP is a quick way to get a very inaccurate FTP. Sure, the number is higher. But that does not mean it's your FTP. I've done NP of 320w for 2 hours, but my FTP is still 270w. Remember the FTP is your maximal 1 hour power. Using the 20 minute method of testing this is an estimation. The more you use yourself anaerobically during this time, the more its going to make your estimation inaccurate. You are getting this number in order to base your training off of, so you need it as accurate as possible.

Again, I recommend a coach. 20-30sec intervals do basically nothing for what you need. See the workout guide stickied in the racing forum. FTP has steadily risen in 4 weeks? Unless you have barely ridden until this month, a 4 week block would not = a 40w increase in threshold. Even a super hard threshold block. Likely you had a poor estimation before, and an over estimation this time, because of the way you tested.

echappist

someone has to point out the obvious

seems like the PM has been nothing but a fancy toy for the OP

DaveWC

I see your point & I can agree with you on this.

I started testing power a month ago so the first FTP test was my first ever. I have 11,000 k in the last 13 months on this bike so it wasn't because of not riding, it was because of not having practice testing FTP. I did it each week since then and it has steadily risen to where I got to today. But I can take your points. I don't need a coach, I have no intention of racing and just do this for exercise & fitness.

DaveWC

Of course it's a toy. So is my bike. When I ride, it's not for a utilitarian purpose, I don't ride to get somewhere that I have to go... I ride out & I ride back. I enjoy the act of riding & enjoy it more when I can track my power.

echappist

there's a difference between a toy and a tool. That said, it's your money so do whatever you want with the PM you bought

DaveWC

Meh, toy, tool, semantics... just words my friend. I ride for enjoyment. If a tool like this allows me to enjoy myself it's a good thing. You can sit back & judge me and the way I use my tools/toys and that's fine too. It was worth my posting this thread as I did learn something so that's good.

gregf83 

You must do this for a living. Most of us still pay to play.

jmX

Jeez, tough crowd in here today.

For me the 20 minute estimation works out pretty close to my real FTP. Anyway I doubt you got any real improvements in FTP in 4 weeks. Maybe 10w. Everything else was just because you sucked at the test before (and now you suck slightly less at it). Next time you've got some bonus energy at the end of the test, crank up your output by 20-30w and hold it there for the next 5 minutes.

Also, you're using AP not NP right? NP would get all whacked out with those intervals you did at the end.

DaveWC

Yes, AP. Thanks for the tip. Now to find that bonus energy at the end. Got any to spare?

btw, my takeaway from this discussion is to test my FTP without riding to a number. Just ride all out for 20 minutes and not focus on maintaining any specific wattage and then see where the average wattage ends up. Had I done that today I would have come in around my previous average.

As for the tough crowd, FTP is a bit of religion for some I'm guessing.

achoo

You did:

If you can get your power up to 700W for 15 sec, you should be able to up it 20-30W and hold it for several minutes, at least.

If you can't hold that, you need to work on aerobic and/or muscular endurance. Short intervals don't do that. Long intervals with no breaks do. Look at your rides - how often do you stop pedaling, or let your power drop below 125W, say? Even for 1 sec? Those little breaks really do kill your endurance workouts.

If you ride "all out" for 20 min, are you holding a constant power throughout that 20 min, or are you starting high and fading?

You should be holding a constant power. For an FTP test, you'll wind up with a higher average, because 5 min @FTP + 30W takes a lot more out of you than you'll get back from 5 min @ FTP - 30W. You'd be better off doing FTP for 10 min - that'd be easier on you, yet both have the same power. And in the real world, where FTP is a tool to get faster, you'll go faster on level ground, assuming no wind effects, if you hold a steady power.

achoo

Yeah, but in this case I'd venture to say the OP is OD'ing on short intervals - from his posting he doesn't seem to hold constant power for his 20-min tests.

I've been there, did that. Both ways. Too much short-interval anaerobic work, not able to hold constant, steady power for 20 min or longer.

I get the impression he's not doing anything close to 20-min no-break-at-all intervals.