Why is steel out of favour?
#51
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Yes that sounds about right. But it is possible to make a steel bike that's under the UCI weight limit. There was a UK pro team who were/are competing on Reynolds 953 frames made by Genesis.
For ultimate performance in a race you'd always want CF but steel is a fine choice for every other kind of bike.
For ultimate performance in a race you'd always want CF but steel is a fine choice for every other kind of bike.
I still am not sure what steel frame is lighter than equal level carbon frames though, which is what I disagreed with.
a bi-oval downtube will help resist bottom bracket twist.
While these are known, I'm not sure how much it actually matters and affect the ride compared to plain round tubes of equal butting.
So in that view, I could see it as a gimmick just like an aero frame is proven, but so incrementally small that it effectively doesn't help a lot of cyclists.
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The difference between today's steel alloys and the stuff up through the eighties and early nineties is pretty big. Not to say the older steel wasn't great. My SLX Tommaso is still a joy to ride.
But the air hardening steel alloys of today are pretty damn amazing. Light, strong and responsive. One local frame builder I worked for never used the traditional brace between the chain stays at the BB shell. Consumers and LBS people complained occasionally, thinking he left it off due to laziness. Not.a.chance.
In the old days, a steel rear triangle was kinda fragile. Re-spacing dropouts was done with ease. Cannondale bragged how strong their rear triangles were by showing a rider crouched on the rear dropouts of a bare frame lying on the ground and said, "If you did this to a steel frame, it would collapse!" or something to that effect. And they were right.
Well, that ain't the case today! Or at least with the steel frames I was tasked with working on. The True Temper rear triangles were BEASTS! I often had to re-space cross frames from 130mm to 135. So that's just 2.5mm change at each dropout. Well, it took ALL my 200 lbs and strength to get these things to budge. And this was with all the right tools, frame table, etc. And again, no chain stay bridge. And this was the thinner stayed road/cross frame model. The mountain frame chain stays were even beefier. Luckily, I never had to change spacing on them; doing so would have required a press. So today's steels are in a completely different arena. There's really no comparison to the previous chrome molybdenum steels of yesteryear.
Problem is, the industry has (or says it has) "moved on" to bigger and better things. Progress, technology, carbon fiber is "space-age" stuff, blah, blah, blah. Steel lost its sex appeal decades ago (for the average, less-knowledgeable consumer). Those of us who know quality bikes & frames still have a great appreciation of quality steel frames. And luckily for us, they're still widely available, if mostly at the boutique level. That said, it's nice to see the big manufacturers like Surly, AllCity, etc. keep the consumer steel market going. Even the big manufacturers have resumed steel production after abandoning it over a decade ago.
Steel is still real, but you won't find it adorning many full-page ads in the latest cycling rag.
But the air hardening steel alloys of today are pretty damn amazing. Light, strong and responsive. One local frame builder I worked for never used the traditional brace between the chain stays at the BB shell. Consumers and LBS people complained occasionally, thinking he left it off due to laziness. Not.a.chance.
In the old days, a steel rear triangle was kinda fragile. Re-spacing dropouts was done with ease. Cannondale bragged how strong their rear triangles were by showing a rider crouched on the rear dropouts of a bare frame lying on the ground and said, "If you did this to a steel frame, it would collapse!" or something to that effect. And they were right.
Well, that ain't the case today! Or at least with the steel frames I was tasked with working on. The True Temper rear triangles were BEASTS! I often had to re-space cross frames from 130mm to 135. So that's just 2.5mm change at each dropout. Well, it took ALL my 200 lbs and strength to get these things to budge. And this was with all the right tools, frame table, etc. And again, no chain stay bridge. And this was the thinner stayed road/cross frame model. The mountain frame chain stays were even beefier. Luckily, I never had to change spacing on them; doing so would have required a press. So today's steels are in a completely different arena. There's really no comparison to the previous chrome molybdenum steels of yesteryear.
Problem is, the industry has (or says it has) "moved on" to bigger and better things. Progress, technology, carbon fiber is "space-age" stuff, blah, blah, blah. Steel lost its sex appeal decades ago (for the average, less-knowledgeable consumer). Those of us who know quality bikes & frames still have a great appreciation of quality steel frames. And luckily for us, they're still widely available, if mostly at the boutique level. That said, it's nice to see the big manufacturers like Surly, AllCity, etc. keep the consumer steel market going. Even the big manufacturers have resumed steel production after abandoning it over a decade ago.
Steel is still real, but you won't find it adorning many full-page ads in the latest cycling rag.
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#56
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It’s not that steel per se is outdated. It’s the method of construction- welding tubes together to make a frame, that is outdated. The new aluminum frames are hydro formed. This allows them to make complex 3D shapes which are aerodynamic and have strength and flexibility in the desired places.
If and when they figure out a way to hydroform high strength steel I guarantee you steel will be back with a vengence.
If and when they figure out a way to hydroform high strength steel I guarantee you steel will be back with a vengence.
https://bikerumor.com/2019/07/18/thy...tweight-steel/
And to say welding tubes together is outdated is simply wrong. Welding air hardening steels increases strength at the heat-affected zone, avoiding many of the shortcomings of previous steel tubes. Welding metals is far from something manufacturers don't do any more.
And hydroformed frames are STILL WELDED! Thyssendrup welds the two halves of the frames together. So much for "outdated" manufacturing processes!
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#58
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Ah, *ping!* of the bat, the roar of the crowd.....
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Meanwhile for today's craft steel frame makers, they should start doing more of this:
And less of this:
#61
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I think what always gets forgotten in threads like this is second look factor. If your goal is to build the fastest bike possible composite frames are where it's at, layup changes, fiber changes, et. al. can built just about the perfect bike for any weight and any power output to go fast but something is lost. If I go to *pick a builder* tell that person what I'm looking for and what I want to do they're going to mix and match tubes to make that happen, if lugs give you a pants tent then you can get those, if one of a kind is your jam you can have that, If your inner weight weenie needs voice that can make that happen no matter what you choose from a steel Speedvagen with all the bits and bobs to a Rivendell with a technomic it's going to make you look back at it. There are bikes that are tools and there are bikes that are feel and that's where the disconnect starts. If your goal is racing you need to decide if you want to race a clock or the dude next to you if Brevets get your juices flowing than get a nice steel frame, if you live for the peloton and the chess that comes with it there's nothing better than a composite.
We all view bikes and our reasons for riding them differently, I'm very much a utility kinda guy I see beauty in a nice steel frame whether it's a Kirk or a Surly just like I see beauty in a Sebenza, a Sinn, and a Jeep but I no chit get it if you don't. I want to throw crap on my bike and Jeep and see stuff, I want to live in no where Alaska, I want quiet, camp fires, and self reliance but I really do get the need for culture, people and great restaurants.
Just pick your thing and have at it, it's the coolest thing about being a grown-up, we get to make our history and our life.
We all view bikes and our reasons for riding them differently, I'm very much a utility kinda guy I see beauty in a nice steel frame whether it's a Kirk or a Surly just like I see beauty in a Sebenza, a Sinn, and a Jeep but I no chit get it if you don't. I want to throw crap on my bike and Jeep and see stuff, I want to live in no where Alaska, I want quiet, camp fires, and self reliance but I really do get the need for culture, people and great restaurants.
Just pick your thing and have at it, it's the coolest thing about being a grown-up, we get to make our history and our life.
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The difference between today's steel alloys and the stuff up through the eighties and early nineties is pretty big. Not to say the older steel wasn't great. My SLX Tommaso is still a joy to ride.
But the air hardening steel alloys of today are pretty damn amazing. Light, strong and responsive. One local frame builder I worked for never used the traditional brace between the chain stays at the BB shell. Consumers and LBS people complained occasionally, thinking he left it off due to laziness. Not.a.chance.
In the old days, a steel rear triangle was kinda fragile. Re-spacing dropouts was done with ease. Cannondale bragged how strong their rear triangles were by showing a rider crouched on the rear dropouts of a bare frame lying on the ground and said, "If you did this to a steel frame, it would collapse!" or something to that effect. And they were right.
Well, that ain't the case today! Or at least with the steel frames I was tasked with working on. The True Temper rear triangles were BEASTS! I often had to re-space cross frames from 130mm to 135. So that's just 2.5mm change at each dropout. Well, it took ALL my 200 lbs and strength to get these things to budge. And this was with all the right tools, frame table, etc. And again, no chain stay bridge. And this was the thinner stayed road/cross frame model. The mountain frame chain stays were even beefier. Luckily, I never had to change spacing on them; doing so would have required a press. So today's steels are in a completely different arena. There's really no comparison to the previous chrome molybdenum steels of yesteryear.
But the air hardening steel alloys of today are pretty damn amazing. Light, strong and responsive. One local frame builder I worked for never used the traditional brace between the chain stays at the BB shell. Consumers and LBS people complained occasionally, thinking he left it off due to laziness. Not.a.chance.
In the old days, a steel rear triangle was kinda fragile. Re-spacing dropouts was done with ease. Cannondale bragged how strong their rear triangles were by showing a rider crouched on the rear dropouts of a bare frame lying on the ground and said, "If you did this to a steel frame, it would collapse!" or something to that effect. And they were right.
Well, that ain't the case today! Or at least with the steel frames I was tasked with working on. The True Temper rear triangles were BEASTS! I often had to re-space cross frames from 130mm to 135. So that's just 2.5mm change at each dropout. Well, it took ALL my 200 lbs and strength to get these things to budge. And this was with all the right tools, frame table, etc. And again, no chain stay bridge. And this was the thinner stayed road/cross frame model. The mountain frame chain stays were even beefier. Luckily, I never had to change spacing on them; doing so would have required a press. So today's steels are in a completely different arena. There's really no comparison to the previous chrome molybdenum steels of yesteryear.
And CrMo is only slightly stronger than Reynolds 531 which just about everything (from mid-level to high end) was made of forever. The main difference is you can't weld 531. We had heat-treated steels back in the 70s as well (Reynolds 753 for example).
So they're all better now than they were, but not by very much, until you get to the super high-zoot stainless alloys but those are tricky to work with and rarely used.
You can always re-space a rear triangle with a piece of threaded rod and a few nuts. Crank it out to about 160mm for a 130 or 165mm for a 135mm and it will spring back to about the right place. But it's quite a good idea not to use heat-treated steel for the rear triangle anyway, especially if you have to dimple it, and you always have to re-space a bit when building the frame.
Reynolds have the really sweet pencil-thin road seatstays which are 0.6mm wall available as 525 (regular CrMo) or 725 (the same thing heat-treated). There's no reason not to just use the 525 ones-- the 725 aren't any thinner wall or lighter. Just less ductile.
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#63
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Grant Petersen, is that you?
Steel doesn't have any advantages relative to any other frame material, and has several significant disadvantages, especially weight and perhaps flex as well.
I've read lots of comments about how "compliant" or forgiving steel is, but the steel bikes I've ridden weren't any more comfortable than aluminum frames.
Steel doesn't have any advantages relative to any other frame material, and has several significant disadvantages, especially weight and perhaps flex as well.
I've read lots of comments about how "compliant" or forgiving steel is, but the steel bikes I've ridden weren't any more comfortable than aluminum frames.
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=It's a great frame material for the geriatric set who get misty eyed at the sight of skinny steel pipes and ornate lugs. Add a quill stem and 53/42 crankset, and, and, and "oooooooh!'
Last edited by cb400bill; 09-25-20 at 12:52 PM.
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I think what always gets forgotten in threads like this is second look factor. If your goal is to build the fastest bike possible composite frames are where it's at, layup changes, fiber changes, et. al. can built just about the perfect bike for any weight and any power output to go fast but something is lost. If I go to *pick a builder* tell that person what I'm looking for and what I want to do they're going to mix and match tubes to make that happen, if lugs give you a pants tent then you can get those, if one of a kind is your jam you can have that, If your inner weight weenie needs voice that can make that happen no matter what you choose from a steel Speedvagen with all the bits and bobs to a Rivendell with a technomic it's going to make you look back at it. There are bikes that are tools and there are bikes that are feel and that's where the disconnect starts. If your goal is racing you need to decide if you want to race a clock or the dude next to you if Brevets get your juices flowing than get a nice steel frame, if you live for the peloton and the chess that comes with it there's nothing better than a composite.
We all view bikes and our reasons for riding them differently, I'm very much a utility kinda guy I see beauty in a nice steel frame whether it's a Kirk or a Surly just like I see beauty in a Sebenza, a Sinn, and a Jeep but I no chit get it if you don't. I want to throw crap on my bike and Jeep and see stuff, I want to live in no where Alaska, I want quiet, camp fires, and self reliance but I really do get the need for culture, people and great restaurants.
Just pick your thing and have at it, it's the coolest thing about being a grown-up, we get to make our history and our life.
We all view bikes and our reasons for riding them differently, I'm very much a utility kinda guy I see beauty in a nice steel frame whether it's a Kirk or a Surly just like I see beauty in a Sebenza, a Sinn, and a Jeep but I no chit get it if you don't. I want to throw crap on my bike and Jeep and see stuff, I want to live in no where Alaska, I want quiet, camp fires, and self reliance but I really do get the need for culture, people and great restaurants.
Just pick your thing and have at it, it's the coolest thing about being a grown-up, we get to make our history and our life.
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#68
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#69
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I have a 13 year old Serotta that is my daily bike. It has Campy Chorus on it. I’ve been offered $3,700 for it. Not sure anyone would want a carbon bike that was 13 years old, just saying.
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the current market has a niche for steel, but it's not the cheap bikes of old. It's upscale. Almost all the cheap bikes are aluminum.
#72
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Depending on the aluminum, they will be, like the Cannondale r series and it's fat tubes. Not to mention tube shape.
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Rode this bad boy today just for the helluvit. Not a round tube to be found. The cows liked it but wanted to know about the saddle. I told them synthetic.
After getting a new wheel set with Conti 5000s for the carbon, the Gatorskins will be going. Enjoy the differences between the bikes.
Is that a leather saddle?
After getting a new wheel set with Conti 5000s for the carbon, the Gatorskins will be going. Enjoy the differences between the bikes.
Is that a leather saddle?
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#74
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#75
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Rode this bad boy today just for the helluvit. Not a round tube to be found. The cows liked it but wanted to know about the saddle. I told them synthetic.
After getting a new wheel set with Conti 5000s for the carbon, the Gatorskins will be going. Enjoy the differences between the bikes.
Is that a leather saddle?
After getting a new wheel set with Conti 5000s for the carbon, the Gatorskins will be going. Enjoy the differences between the bikes.
Is that a leather saddle?
Cow's tag on the right looks like she's been labeled as a pig.