bikemig 

I'm enjoying this thread. I'm rebuilding a 1950s Claud Butler Jubilee and I may go down some of the same rabbit holes looking for parts. I am thinking of going with an SA 3 speed rear hub though as that eliminates the problem of trying to track down 1950s era derailleurs.

Wildwood 

Ya know, Campy Gran Sport derailleurs and shifters would be era appropriate. Maybe not as fancy or unique as you are planning - but they can be had for rider quality patina'd bikes. This set soon going on a '59 bike.




Oh - PS = great thread, @obrentharris. You are commended for resurrecting these old frames. Being a 2-day new Carlton owner ('79 Competition - somewhat mundane, late Worksop slop).
Following the thread with interest.

scarlson 

Yeah, it certainly would! Finding a Juy 56 for my Taylor took about 8 months, eventually required shipping from France (just before corona hit), and I paid a pretty penny for a tatty example. It doesn't shift as well as Record, but does shift better than Gran Sport. But the thrill of the hunt did not disappoint.

Big Block

for those interested in bikes of this period, useful information and entertainment can be found in these threads on LFGSS
Pre 1950s rides of LFGSS: old bikes, vintage rats, classic lightweights and it does cover the 1950s as well
7VEN's 1947 Hobbs of Barbican Clubweight Build and many other old builds which deals with Hobbs of Barbican frames and period components.

bikemig 

These, unlike most of the other 50s era derailleurs, can be found at non-crazy prices even on the big auction house. This stuff was well made and my guess is that they lasted better than the competing 50s era derailleurs. They are a good choice for this era build.

obrentharris 

The Piece of paper found in the seat tube by @retyred.
Needless to say it is old and worse for the years but I think it fairly well confirms the date of 1957 for this bike. This has writing on two sides, some of which bleeds through from one side to the other. I have used Photoshop to increase the contrast and make the writing a little more visible. I'll walk you through what I see here, one side of the paper at a time.



In the lower right is "9676" in pencil with some writing in ink over it. The serial number of this bike is D9676.

In the center right the paint is described: "Two tone red flam" and "Darker head and seat panels."

Above that is "24" which is the size of the bike in inches.

In the upper left is "Ohrt" the retail shop that originally sold the bike.

Below that is "Silver Clubman." I don't know what this references. Was there a pump or fender model named "Clubman?" Could this be a reference to the chrome fork?

I also don't know the reference of "8303" in the upper right corner.

So, on this first side of the paper we have a description of the frame and the shop which sold it.


Here is the other side:



This appears to be receipt 23296 (upper right corner) for an unrelated wheel rim as seen in the middle of the paper "1 27 x 1 1/4 H.P. 40 hole wheel rim.

Beneath that is the price of the rim I presume in shillings and pence if my rudimentary understanding of the pounds, shillings, pence system is correct, and perhaps the abbreviation for "Received" under that.

Upper left has an address that I can only partly read but I can make out Cheapside, Worksop. Was this the address of Carlton in Worksop or perhaps that of the customer for the rim.

But the important detail for our purposes is the date of the receipt "July 31st / 57."

My guess is that this is a receipt that was reused by Carlton to specify the paint and the customer for this frame. Presumably the frame was painted some time shortly after the date of the receipt. The chain stay cable stop and the front derailleur marks, as I have pointed out before, seem to confirm this hunch.

As always I welcome your ideas and suggestions.
Brent

obrentharris 

I neglected to point out that written at the bottom of the receipt is the word "Collected."
Brent

John E

I can confirm that Campag. Gran Sport were OEM on 1959-1960 Capos (the other Austrian marque that made it to the US).

retyred

Great presentation and analysis of a 63 year old piece of paper. No doubt the lubricant from the bottom bracket helped preserve it.
How it ended up in the seat tube and not the trash? Not important but its presence there lends a bit of provenance to your Carlton.

obrentharris 

Thanks to you, @Wildwood, and @bikemig for these very reasonable suggestions.
Alas, I am not always pragmatic as my family will attest. I already own a Grand Sport Olmo and a Record Allegro so I am determined to set this one up otherwise.
I learn more that way too.
Brent

obrentharris 

At Last Some Progress to Report

Original brake cable housing reinstalled. Tires mounted, handlebars wrapped, replacement non-drive crank arm installed. (not first generation unfortunately.) I modified a MAFAC half hood to work with these levers and a friend is sending me another one. Sacrilege, I know, but they shall have to do until @Big Block brings his GB hood project to fruition. I tried a bit of paint touch up with Testors enamel but with poor results.

I am discovering the scarcity of available parts for non-Campagnolo bikes of this era. Thanks to a tip from @scarlson I have acquired a matched set of Brampton dust caps from a seller on ebay UK. Not an exact match for the one that I had, but nice looking and close enough for now.

@Catnap came through with period correct Simplex shifters in nice shape.

I would appreciate any suggestions for brands and models of pumps that are correct for this bike. It would be a shame to leave those pump pegs unoccupied.






Brent

Kilroy1988 

obrentharris

It looks great! Pumps from Bluemels or APEX would be among the most commonly available high-end British examples at the time. Not so easy to find here in the US but they come up with decent prices on eBay UK regularly.

Current APEX listings

Current Bluemels listings

obrentharris 

@Kilroy1988 thanks again for your ongoing assistance!
Brent

Catnap 

stoked to see those Simplex levers on the bike. they look perfectly in their element. the build is coming together! i love this kind of challenging build where you have a specific vision and it'll be an adventure to track each esoteric component down.

Insidious C. 

I'm curious what you think of the 27" Dunlop's ride quality, and if you plan to keep them on the bike.

AustinFitz

Great work! It looks absolutely beautiful! I'm really looking forward to seeing more on this one.

Threads like these are my favorites. I just love soaking up all of the invaluable technical information from everyone's research and detective work, combined with the privilege of watching an amazing vintage bicycle being brought back to life with the TLC of an excited new owner!

I've become fascinated by the lightweight racing bikes of the 1950s, though I've yet to actually restore one myself... For me that fascination began with "the one that got away".

It was an early 1950s SAETA with Nervex lugs. It was in rough shape, but surprisingly completely original, and all there minus the original leather saddle. Unfortunately it fell into my lap at a time when I knew very little about bikes like this, and due to my financial situation at the time I knew I wouldn't be able to give it the love it deserved anyway, so I passed it on... That decision still haunts me daily, and ever since then I've been drooling over projects like yours!

obrentharris 

I have not yet ridden the bike. Until I have at least a rear derailleur for it I can only imagine how it rides. I have some doubts about the steel rims but I'm trying to keep an open mind. I have tubulars on my other bikes of similar era, so that is always an option.

I can see why the memory of that bike haunts you. That looks like a fine project! But do not despair: These bikes are out there. I found this one and an Allegro of similar vintage by placing a "bike wanted" notice on the sales forum here and at Classic Rendezvous.
Brent

obrentharris 

At last some progress to report! Finding derailleurs has been my largest hurdle. They are few and far between.

But first a few pictures. I took the Carlton on its first shakedown ride today, 28 miles with some good climbs and descents. The bike behaved very well. It was more of a shakedown for the rider than the bike. Between the 51 inch gear and the reverse-pull rear derailleur with a certain vagueness in shifting that comes with a plunger type derailleur and square cut cog teeth the learning curve was as steep as the hills.









I was unable to find the correct rear derailleur, a Juy 543, that was beat up enough that I could afford it and I was unable to find any Juy 56 front with the necessary clamps. Early in my search I found a Juy 51 rear that was made for a 4-speed freewheel but was able to modify it to work with 5. After several months of fruitless searching for a Juy 56 I decided to alter my course. Since the crankset on this bike was upgraded sometime in the early sixties I decided to find derailleurs of similar vintage. The LJ 23 that I installed is very similar to the black plastic Simplex front derailleur that came on so many bike boom bikes. It immediately precedes those derailleurs but is made of aluminum.

Now I'm looking for a Juy 61 rear derailleur, another difficult item to find, but at least I can ride the bike in the meantime.

Brent

obrentharris 

Thanks to the gift of a Simplex Raidexport 32 derailleur from @tiger1964 the '57 Carlton now has a modern drivetrain. (Well, modern by 1963 standards.) Cranks and derailleurs are now all from the early sixties And all work together pretty well. Someday I may find the original equipment Juy 56 front derr. and Juy 543 rear derr. at prices I can bring myself to spend, but my heart won't be broken if I don't.

Fork still needs a little alignment. But that can wait until the next time I have access to those tools. I'll check out the frame on the alignment table while I'm at it. It wants to pull slightly to the left, enough to make riding no hands challenging but not impossible. In the meantime I'm having fun with it!






Brent

Kilroy1988 

Looks like great fun, Brent! 'Tis a nice assembly of drive train components, I think... I'm just finishing up some touch up paint on my 1954 Carlton Super Python frame and will be assembling it during my holiday break in a couple of weeks. When spring comes around maybe I can get up into the bay and we can bring these lost brethren together!

-Gregory

rhm

I have heard --probably internet chatter, I don't remember where-- that A&P Kromo was preferred for forks. I can confirm that I have seen the A&P stamp on at least three steerer tubes on bike with otherwise unknown tubing. My Fothergill, for example; the original paint and decals were long gone, but rust stains on the steel showed that where you'd expect a '531' decal there had once been a rectangular decal with rounded corners exactly the size of a '531' decal. The photos I've seen of A&P tubing decals were a different shape. But the fork (both steerer and D-shaped blades) was A&P. On the Drysdale I had, there was an A&P stamp on the steerer, and no other tubing stamps that I could find. On an Armstrong, same thing: A&P steerer, no other tubing stamps to be seen.

Reynolds and A&P were competitors, but at some point --and I think this bike is from that time-- both were owned by TI.

PilotFishBob 

This is a timely thread for me, I recently acquired a 1950 frameset and have been busy collecting parts. "Hard to find" is putting it mildly, and the budget has taken quite the beating on this one. Seriously digging the Carlton, I'm taking a few notes. And of course misery loves company.

Kilroy1988 

It's funny you bring that up because I was having a related conversation yesterday with a very knowledgeable collector in England (he currently owns about twenty classic lightweights of the 30s-50s era and has probably gone through a hundred more. I just purchased a Claud Butler frame from him and asked about confirming the tubing by referencing the steer tube so I could pick up the right decal, and he actually said that A&P was often preferred JUST for the steer tube, while the rest of the fork could frequently be made from Reynolds. So checking for that little "531" stamp on the steerer isn't always the best way to confirm!

-Gregory

tiger1964 

Glad to hear it's in use and working. I recall that the stand-offs attached to the back plate of the parallelogram to support the thumbwheel shaft (this RD almost needs its own lexicon to describe the parts) were a bit loose/wobbly. Were you able to re-peen them to tighten, or does it even affect how it all works to adjust/limit travel?

rhm

Yup, that is consistent with what I had been told.

For what it's worth, I have seen the "531" stamp on one fork steerer (on a 1982 Trek 720 fork). I have had many other forks in my hands, from the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's.... that 'should' have 531 stamps, but I couldn't find them. Finding a 531 stamp (or another stamp) is conclusive, but not finding one is not.