I just bought...
01-19-18, 07:37 AM
#177
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Not really. The basic shape is rather similar to a normal road bar, just the top sections are tear-drop shaped. Not sure there is any great aero advantage as the frontal area looks no different to a standard, round section bar, but they do look nice and appear to be a pretty sturdy, well made bar from what I can tell. My 37cm wide set suit my set-up quite well, thanks to a shallow drop and a decent section of flat bar at the bottom.
01-30-18, 11:57 AM
#180
Idiot Emeritus
I bought a used FFWD F5R front wheel, pulled the 25MM Continental Sprinter off of it and replaced it with a 19MM Vittoria Pista Evo CS - $200 all in. Next, I bought a Chinese 88MM carbon tubie with a Novatec hub for the rear wheel, put a 23MM Vittoria Pista Evo CS on it - $300 all in. Training wheelset for VSC! Rode them this past weekend there, and I am super pleased. Nary a squeak on the banking, and the wheels are smooth, true, and quite fast. And they were cheap!
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01-31-18, 07:06 PM
#182
Idiot Emeritus
Yep. Used, but about perfect. The tire was $85, wheel $120. Ebay, I snapped it up! The Vittorias were on sale at BikeTiresDirect. I've seen the price on those things fluctuate a lot.
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Last edited by sarals; 01-31-18 at 07:12 PM.
01-31-18, 07:29 PM
#183
Idiot Emeritus
Here's the wheels...
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02-01-18, 09:06 AM
#186
Idiot Emeritus
Hey @carleton, thanks! Honestly, I acquired these wheels to use only on the boards at VSC. You mentioned how fast they are? Yes, they are, and they surprised me. I was in a warmup paceline Saturday morning at VSC with a bunch of the local guys, and I was easily taking pulls. The wheels were quite fast! I rode my "fast" setup in the LAVRA TT on Sunday (Planet X five spoke and FFWD Disc T), and they felt no different than the "training" wheels. It made me think about things for a minute or two... Thanks again!
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02-01-18, 04:32 PM
#187
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Hey @carleton, thanks! Honestly, I acquired these wheels to use only on the boards at VSC. You mentioned how fast they are? Yes, they are, and they surprised me. I was in a warmup paceline Saturday morning at VSC with a bunch of the local guys, and I was easily taking pulls. The wheels were quite fast! I rode my "fast" setup in the LAVRA TT on Sunday (Planet X five spoke and FFWD Disc T), and they felt no different than the "training" wheels. It made me think about things for a minute or two... Thanks again!
After a certain point, there are diminishing returns (if any returns at all) to going to the most aero wheels available.
I have a lot of anecdotal evidence of this (setting PBs on basic aero wheels and not my race wheels).
Keep in mind that it's estimated that 90% of the aerodynamic drag is your body. This means that fiddling the rest of the bike, front wheel, rear wheel, frame, cranks, pedals, etc... only tweaks 10% of the equation. Yes, there is a noticeable difference in manipulating that 10% when going from 36-spoked box rim (long spokes in the wind) wheels to a HED Tri Spoke or Mavic IO. But there is little noticeable difference when comparing moderately aero wheels (like Zipp 404 or Mavic Ellipse) to super duper aero wheels (like Mavic iO/Comete or Zipp 808s)....especially for us mere mortals who aren't in the top 1% of racers in the world.
To put it another way:
Nobody went from riding Zipp 404s to Mavic Io/Comete and flew out of the velodrome. People can't even put a rule-of-thumb number around the gains one might achieve during a given time trial like one would say about going from sea level to altitude taking around 0.5" off of a flying 200.
Going from Zipp 404 to Mavics will get you a shoulder shrug amount of time off of your flying 200
Last edited by carleton; 02-01-18 at 04:36 PM.
02-01-18, 04:41 PM
#188
Senior Member
I like training on slow wheels -Carleton's afore mentioned 36 hole box section rims- and slowish training tires. makes you really work for it in training and then you get a big boost when you put on the go-fast gear. Things brings more of a psychological boost on race day for me.
02-01-18, 06:38 PM
#189
Idiot Emeritus
I like training on slow wheels -Carleton's afore mentioned 36 hole box section rims- and slowish training tires. makes you really work for it in training and then you get a big boost when you put on the go-fast gear. Things brings more of a psychological boost on race day for me.
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Last edited by sarals; 02-01-18 at 06:42 PM.
02-01-18, 06:40 PM
#190
Idiot Emeritus
Yup.
After a certain point, there are diminishing returns (if any returns at all) to going to the most aero wheels available.
I have a lot of anecdotal evidence of this (setting PBs on basic aero wheels and not my race wheels).
Keep in mind that it's estimated that 90% of the aerodynamic drag is your body. This means that fiddling the rest of the bike, front wheel, rear wheel, frame, cranks, pedals, etc... only tweaks 10% of the equation. Yes, there is a noticeable difference in manipulating that 10% when going from 36-spoked box rim (long spokes in the wind) wheels to a HED Tri Spoke or Mavic IO. But there is little noticeable difference when comparing moderately aero wheels (like Zipp 404 or Mavic Ellipse) to super duper aero wheels (like Mavic iO/Comete or Zipp 808s)....especially for us mere mortals who aren't in the top 1% of racers in the world.
To put it another way:
Nobody went from riding Zipp 404s to Mavic Io/Comete and flew out of the velodrome. People can't even put a rule-of-thumb number around the gains one might achieve during a given time trial like one would say about going from sea level to altitude taking around 0.5" off of a flying 200.
Going from Zipp 404 to Mavics will get you a shoulder shrug amount of time off of your flying 200
After a certain point, there are diminishing returns (if any returns at all) to going to the most aero wheels available.
I have a lot of anecdotal evidence of this (setting PBs on basic aero wheels and not my race wheels).
Keep in mind that it's estimated that 90% of the aerodynamic drag is your body. This means that fiddling the rest of the bike, front wheel, rear wheel, frame, cranks, pedals, etc... only tweaks 10% of the equation. Yes, there is a noticeable difference in manipulating that 10% when going from 36-spoked box rim (long spokes in the wind) wheels to a HED Tri Spoke or Mavic IO. But there is little noticeable difference when comparing moderately aero wheels (like Zipp 404 or Mavic Ellipse) to super duper aero wheels (like Mavic iO/Comete or Zipp 808s)....especially for us mere mortals who aren't in the top 1% of racers in the world.
To put it another way:
Nobody went from riding Zipp 404s to Mavic Io/Comete and flew out of the velodrome. People can't even put a rule-of-thumb number around the gains one might achieve during a given time trial like one would say about going from sea level to altitude taking around 0.5" off of a flying 200.
Going from Zipp 404 to Mavics will get you a shoulder shrug amount of time off of your flying 200
Yeah, but you sure will look COOLER on those Mavics! And everyone knows, for gosh sakes, you got to look the part.
Thanks, @carleton - good stuff, indeed!
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02-02-18, 08:05 AM
#192
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I saw a graph once that showed the aero gains vs. rim depth. The curve climbed pretty steeply up to about 30mm, then it started to level off. Basically, once you cross 30mm, the marginal gains are diminishing.
02-02-18, 09:33 AM
#193
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I have a friend who was routinely sub 11 on spokey Navigator clinchers and an alloy TC1. Logged a 10.4 PB before getting a 5 spoke/disc combo and Fuji Elite, at which point he clocked a 10.01. Definitely convinced me to spend my money on coaching, training camps, and diet, rather than upgrades.
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02-02-18, 09:50 AM
#194
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It's an expensive lesson to learn.
These upgrades do work sometimes or on a very small level that's within some margin of error. But, they are never big.
Back in 2012, I wrote this:
I still believe that.
The mind is a weird thing. I think the concept is called "transference" or something like that where we subconsciously associate things with performance. This is the root of celebrity/athlete endorsements.
Joe Blow is the fastest athlete in the world.
I saw Joe Blow drinking Acme Co. beverages.
Acme Co. beverages must make people fast.
Liz Whiz is the best tennis player in the world.
Liz plays using Acme Co. shoes.
Acme Co. shoes must make people great tennis players.
We are watching this happen with BLS and their nylon straps. How many of us bought them thinking that they* would make us faster than the straps we had before?
*Straps make people faster, provided that they meet a minimum set of functional requirements. But, of the ones that meet the minimum functional requirements, there is little difference, if any at all.
These upgrades do work sometimes or on a very small level that's within some margin of error. But, they are never big.
Back in 2012, I wrote this:
For best results (in my humble opinion) spend money in this general order:
- Track season pass (ride/race as much as possible)
- Road Bike
- *basic* equipment (chainrings, cogs, tools). Notice that I didn't say fancy carbon or aero gear.
- Race entry fees (but this should be covered in the season pass)
- Clinics
- Skinsuit, aero helmet, booties
- Diet for Athletes book. This will change your energy and fat levels.
- Gym membership (if you plan to be a sprinter)
- Coaching (optional really)
- Travel to other tracks for regional type events to broaden your horizions
- Aero front wheel
- Fancy carbon/custom frame
- Aero disc
The returns diminish as you go down the list.
- Track season pass (ride/race as much as possible)
- Road Bike
- *basic* equipment (chainrings, cogs, tools). Notice that I didn't say fancy carbon or aero gear.
- Race entry fees (but this should be covered in the season pass)
- Clinics
- Skinsuit, aero helmet, booties
- Diet for Athletes book. This will change your energy and fat levels.
- Gym membership (if you plan to be a sprinter)
- Coaching (optional really)
- Travel to other tracks for regional type events to broaden your horizions
- Aero front wheel
- Fancy carbon/custom frame
- Aero disc
The returns diminish as you go down the list.
The mind is a weird thing. I think the concept is called "transference" or something like that where we subconsciously associate things with performance. This is the root of celebrity/athlete endorsements.
Joe Blow is the fastest athlete in the world.
I saw Joe Blow drinking Acme Co. beverages.
Acme Co. beverages must make people fast.
Liz Whiz is the best tennis player in the world.
Liz plays using Acme Co. shoes.
Acme Co. shoes must make people great tennis players.
We are watching this happen with BLS and their nylon straps. How many of us bought them thinking that they* would make us faster than the straps we had before?
*Straps make people faster, provided that they meet a minimum set of functional requirements. But, of the ones that meet the minimum functional requirements, there is little difference, if any at all.
02-03-18, 12:03 AM
#195
Senior Member
Finally bought these Lake shoes, pretty psyched. It's clear after trying them I've been cramming my feet into too-small cycling shoes for nearly 30 years. 
02-03-18, 09:42 AM
#196
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Haven't tried the lace-ups, but I really like the way Lake's wide shoes fit me. My fit are wide in the front but not further back. The Sidi Mega's I had tried before were too wide overall and too much volume, the Lake Wide's are pretty good out of the box and my 402's are heat-moldable so I could snug up the heel even more. Also like the less-pointed toe box shape.
02-03-18, 06:23 PM
#197
Senior Member
Haven't tried the lace-ups, but I really like the way Lake's wide shoes fit me. My fit are wide in the front but not further back. The Sidi Mega's I had tried before were too wide overall and too much volume, the Lake Wide's are pretty good out of the box and my 402's are heat-moldable so I could snug up the heel even more. Also like the less-pointed toe box shape.
02-04-18, 08:02 PM
#198
Senior Member
The mind is a weird thing. I think the concept is called "transference" or something like that where we subconsciously associate things with performance. This is the root of celebrity/athlete endorsements.
Joe Blow is the fastest athlete in the world.
I saw Joe Blow drinking Acme Co. beverages.
Acme Co. beverages must make people fast.
Liz Whiz is the best tennis player in the world.
Liz plays using Acme Co. shoes.
Acme Co. shoes must make people great tennis players.
We are watching this happen with BLS and their nylon straps. How many of us bought them thinking that they* would make us faster than the straps we had before?
*Straps make people faster, provided that they meet a minimum set of functional requirements. But, of the ones that meet the minimum functional requirements, there is little difference, if any at all.
Joe Blow is the fastest athlete in the world.
I saw Joe Blow drinking Acme Co. beverages.
Acme Co. beverages must make people fast.
Liz Whiz is the best tennis player in the world.
Liz plays using Acme Co. shoes.
Acme Co. shoes must make people great tennis players.
We are watching this happen with BLS and their nylon straps. How many of us bought them thinking that they* would make us faster than the straps we had before?
*Straps make people faster, provided that they meet a minimum set of functional requirements. But, of the ones that meet the minimum functional requirements, there is little difference, if any at all.
Marketing 101I went from Toshi to skingrowsback straps as I had great difficulty getting the Toshis into the second strap hole after tightening. No problems with the velcro straps. Having said that, I actually rarely do the straps up. Unless I'm doing a full gas standing start, I don't use them, and I really only use them to take the foot play out cause by my shoes. But I'm a marketer's worst nightmare, a function over form kind of guy. I can do full on 100% resistance starts on the Kickr and have NEVER pulled my foot.
02-07-18, 09:24 PM
#199
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These aren't really JUST bought, but over the winter I've acquired an older TK1, Profile Design aerobars, and Bont Vaypor T shoes. Oh, and some 36cm bars, and a dedicated TT saddle that is pretty comfy for bunch racing on the track, surprisingly.
02-08-18, 06:31 AM
#200
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It's an expensive lesson to learn.
These upgrades do work sometimes or on a very small level that's within some margin of error. But, they are never big.
Back in 2012, I wrote this:
I still believe that.
These upgrades do work sometimes or on a very small level that's within some margin of error. But, they are never big.
Back in 2012, I wrote this:
I still believe that.