Ask your small, random, track-related questions here
#1676
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"Track" bars are bent such that the forearms don't get bruised during standing starts when the shoulders are directly over the grips.
Generally, only track sprinters do a lot of standing starts. Enduros, not so much.
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Gotcha. Is the track drops vs road drops more of a preference? I've got road drops on my track bike now but I have track drops sitting around. Will try em out next time, especially if there is a noticeable advantage. Haven't put them back on since switching to road.
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Gotcha. Is the track drops vs road drops more of a preference? I've got road drops on my track bike now but I have track drops sitting around. Will try em out next time, especially if there is a noticeable advantage. Haven't put them back on since switching to road.
Go for whichever is the narrowest for sure.
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Looking at purchasing a new set of custom built wheels. They offer a radial spoke for the front. What are the advantages of radial spokes? Should I opt for then?
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2) To answer your question:
The benefits of radial lacing are a slightly lighter, more aero, and slightly stiffer wheel. Its also much easier and faster to build a radially laced wheel. The only real drawback to radial lacing is that it cannot handle torque, which is why a rear wheel is never completely radial laced, although one side may be radial. Radial is perfectly fine for the front, unless you are using a disk brake. Radial lacing stresses the hub flange more and there is a very minor risk of breaking the hub flange if you are using a hub not built for radial lacing.
All my bikes have radially laced fronts ranging in spoke count from 36-24, all custom built by myself. My oldest pairs of wheels have been subjected to pretty severe punishment, but none of them have ever broken, lost tension, or gone out of true. With the right front hub (and no disk brake), radial is as strong, durable, and reliable as a 2x or 3x. Overall, the benefits are exceedingly minor, but IMO, its the best lacing strategy for the front wheel.
All my bikes have radially laced fronts ranging in spoke count from 36-24, all custom built by myself. My oldest pairs of wheels have been subjected to pretty severe punishment, but none of them have ever broken, lost tension, or gone out of true. With the right front hub (and no disk brake), radial is as strong, durable, and reliable as a 2x or 3x. Overall, the benefits are exceedingly minor, but IMO, its the best lacing strategy for the front wheel.
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Assuming spoke count and spoke gauge are appropriate for the riders weight and discipline, I seriously doubt anyone here could tell the difference in different lacing patterns.
#1682
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first off, thanks for helping me out with my newbie questions.
I am watching this video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KqYQLHv2yE ) and around 3:45 into the video I notice Jason Kenny using a generic road riding giro helmet and a bike with Mavic iO and rear Mavic Ellipse wheel. Considering this was the Olympics, I don't get why he wouldn't run an aero helmet and Mavic iO and Comete on his bike. Can someone shed light on this ?
I am watching this video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KqYQLHv2yE ) and around 3:45 into the video I notice Jason Kenny using a generic road riding giro helmet and a bike with Mavic iO and rear Mavic Ellipse wheel. Considering this was the Olympics, I don't get why he wouldn't run an aero helmet and Mavic iO and Comete on his bike. Can someone shed light on this ?
Last edited by SBUndefeated201; 12-28-14 at 05:04 PM. Reason: Info left out
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first off, thanks for helping me out with my newbie questions.
I am watching this video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KqYQLHv2yE ) and around 3:45 into the video I notice Jason Kenny using a generic road riding giro helmet and a bike with Mavic iO and rear Mavic Ellipse wheel. Considering this was the Olympics, I don't get why he wouldn't run an aero helmet and Mavic iO and Comete on his bike. Can someone shed light on this ?
I am watching this video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KqYQLHv2yE ) and around 3:45 into the video I notice Jason Kenny using a generic road riding giro helmet and a bike with Mavic iO and rear Mavic Ellipse wheel. Considering this was the Olympics, I don't get why he wouldn't run an aero helmet and Mavic iO and Comete on his bike. Can someone shed light on this ?
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#1686
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first off, thanks for helping me out with my newbie questions.
I am watching this video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KqYQLHv2yE ) and around 3:45 into the video I notice Jason Kenny using a generic road riding giro helmet and a bike with Mavic iO and rear Mavic Ellipse wheel. Considering this was the Olympics, I don't get why he wouldn't run an aero helmet and Mavic iO and Comete on his bike. Can someone shed light on this ?
I am watching this video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KqYQLHv2yE ) and around 3:45 into the video I notice Jason Kenny using a generic road riding giro helmet and a bike with Mavic iO and rear Mavic Ellipse wheel. Considering this was the Olympics, I don't get why he wouldn't run an aero helmet and Mavic iO and Comete on his bike. Can someone shed light on this ?
I don't know the story, but either his opponent forfeit the first round (injury, sickness, etc...) or he was granted a bye in the first round in the tournament.
Per the rules, he still has to show up with a helmet on to the start line and be officially ready to receive the win for the round. This is called a "walk over win" where you walk over to the start line and are granted the win. This happens at local races, too. It's a formality.
He put on a road helmet just because it's nearby and he didn't need the aero one. The bike may have been on the trainer, hence the training wheel in the rear.
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I don't know the story, but either his opponent forfeit the first round (injury, sickness, etc...) or he was granted a bye in the first round in the tournament.
Per the rules, he still has to show up with a helmet on to the start line and be officially ready to receive the win for the round. This is called a "walk over win" where you walk over to the start line and are granted the win. This happens at local races, too. It's a formality.
He put on a road helmet just because it's nearby and he didn't need the aero one. The bike may have been on the trainer, hence the training wheel in the rear.
Per the rules, he still has to show up with a helmet on to the start line and be officially ready to receive the win for the round. This is called a "walk over win" where you walk over to the start line and are granted the win. This happens at local races, too. It's a formality.
He put on a road helmet just because it's nearby and he didn't need the aero one. The bike may have been on the trainer, hence the training wheel in the rear.
Makes sense. After watching the video again, I noticed a commentator say that there was an odd number of 17 races for the sprint so Jason Kenny didn't have a person to race.
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We've had the long socks vs short socks vs no socks thread, and on a similar sort of theme (but a genuine question); Ive been wondering about long-sleeved vs short-sleeved skin suites. There seems to be a mix at the top level, certainly among the enduros. Other than personal preference, and perhaps not wanting to shave very hairy arms or tending to overheat easily, are their any strong motivations for either choice?
any thoughts?
any thoughts?
#1689
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tldr - Sleeves are faster. Just a couple of studies on the topic...
From Streamlining the time trial apparel of cyclists: the Nike Swift Spin project - Brownlie - 2009 - Sports Technology - Wiley Online Library
And from Aerodynamics of Track Cycling by By Lindsey Underwood
https://ir.canterbury.ac.nz/bitstream...s_fulltext.pdf
From Streamlining the time trial apparel of cyclists: the Nike Swift Spin project - Brownlie - 2009 - Sports Technology - Wiley Online Library
4. CONCLUSION
Through extensive wind tunnel measurements, we determined that the aerodynamic drag of TT cyclists can be significantly reduced through the development of streamlined TT apparel. The most effective apparel design innovations proved to be:
1. The use of lightweight stretch fabrics to allow adequate thermoregulation during extended periods of exercise.
2. The development of a garment pattern that produces the fewest wrinkles when the suit is worn in the TT position.
3. Custom fitting of each suit to the cyclist to minimize wrinkles or areas of loose fabric.
4. In regions of attached flow, the use of flat seams aligned parallel to the flow direction.
5. Placement of the majority of seams towards the rear or in regions of separated flow, where they have no impact on drag (Figure 7).
6. Placement of necessary cooling panels in shielded regions out of the air stream.
7. In zones of attached airflow, such as the torso, smoother fabric textures were utilized to minimize skin friction.
8. Appropriate fabric textures were carefully placed in cross-flow zones to induce boundary layer transition from laminar to turbulent, and thereby reduce the low-pressure wake behind the segment.
9. The upper arms, thighs, and calves encounter cross-flow where appropriate surface textures of fabric were found to provide less air drag than bare skin. Although longer sleeves and tights might provide enhanced aerodynamic benefits, garment length appears to be determined by customs, regulations, cooling requirements, and factors other than aerodynamics.
Through extensive wind tunnel measurements, we determined that the aerodynamic drag of TT cyclists can be significantly reduced through the development of streamlined TT apparel. The most effective apparel design innovations proved to be:
1. The use of lightweight stretch fabrics to allow adequate thermoregulation during extended periods of exercise.
2. The development of a garment pattern that produces the fewest wrinkles when the suit is worn in the TT position.
3. Custom fitting of each suit to the cyclist to minimize wrinkles or areas of loose fabric.
4. In regions of attached flow, the use of flat seams aligned parallel to the flow direction.
5. Placement of the majority of seams towards the rear or in regions of separated flow, where they have no impact on drag (Figure 7).
6. Placement of necessary cooling panels in shielded regions out of the air stream.
7. In zones of attached airflow, such as the torso, smoother fabric textures were utilized to minimize skin friction.
8. Appropriate fabric textures were carefully placed in cross-flow zones to induce boundary layer transition from laminar to turbulent, and thereby reduce the low-pressure wake behind the segment.
9. The upper arms, thighs, and calves encounter cross-flow where appropriate surface textures of fabric were found to provide less air drag than bare skin. Although longer sleeves and tights might provide enhanced aerodynamic benefits, garment length appears to be determined by customs, regulations, cooling requirements, and factors other than aerodynamics.
https://ir.canterbury.ac.nz/bitstream...s_fulltext.pdf
3.2.2.4 Clothing
The design, fit and aerodynamic attributes of athlete clothing can all contribute to an improved athlete
performance, with a reduction in drag of 10% seen for athletes wearing appropriate clothing [Oggiano et al.,
2009, Kyle, 2003a]. The design of an aerodynamic skinsuit should have seams parallel to the flow or in
separated flow zones where they will not increase the drag, be close fitting to minimise wrinkles, be made of
smooth, rubberised material, cover body hair, and have any graphics out of the airflow [Oggiano et al., 2009,
Kyle and Weaver, 2004, Brownlie et al., 1991]. A cyclist is a bluff body for which pressure drag dominates.
Separation at low speeds can be delayed by inducing turbulence in order to minimise the aerodynamic drag.
This can be achieved by introducing trip wires, surface roughness, or dimples slightly upstream of the point
of separation. As the torso of a cyclist is nearly horizontal, smooth fabric should be applied in this area
where the flow is parallel as skin friction dominates [Brownlie et al., 2009].
The design, fit and aerodynamic attributes of athlete clothing can all contribute to an improved athlete
performance, with a reduction in drag of 10% seen for athletes wearing appropriate clothing [Oggiano et al.,
2009, Kyle, 2003a]. The design of an aerodynamic skinsuit should have seams parallel to the flow or in
separated flow zones where they will not increase the drag, be close fitting to minimise wrinkles, be made of
smooth, rubberised material, cover body hair, and have any graphics out of the airflow [Oggiano et al., 2009,
Kyle and Weaver, 2004, Brownlie et al., 1991]. A cyclist is a bluff body for which pressure drag dominates.
Separation at low speeds can be delayed by inducing turbulence in order to minimise the aerodynamic drag.
This can be achieved by introducing trip wires, surface roughness, or dimples slightly upstream of the point
of separation. As the torso of a cyclist is nearly horizontal, smooth fabric should be applied in this area
where the flow is parallel as skin friction dominates [Brownlie et al., 2009].
#1690
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Further reading of the later - Brownlie et al., 2009 study referred to is the first study linked...
Lots of great information in the Underwood study - and has given me some great holiday reading material for tomorrow.
Lots of great information in the Underwood study - and has given me some great holiday reading material for tomorrow.
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I wear a short sleeve, the castelli one that is starting to show up in a lot of road races. I like it because it still has pockets, and I can pee out of it. Its also not a nightmare to put on like previous ones Ive had. The transition in the sleeve is very smooth to my girly arms.
Im sure its slightly slower than a full TT suit, but not all suits are equal to begin with. Ive heard gloves are not as fast as no gloves. My arms are not particularly hairy, I doubt I have the flow separation some would. There is a comfort factor too, which is worth the 1 or 2s in a 4k to me still. If I get under 5min then Ill start to care lol
Im sure its slightly slower than a full TT suit, but not all suits are equal to begin with. Ive heard gloves are not as fast as no gloves. My arms are not particularly hairy, I doubt I have the flow separation some would. There is a comfort factor too, which is worth the 1 or 2s in a 4k to me still. If I get under 5min then Ill start to care lol
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Great, thanks folk. very interesting. Ive clearly used the wrong search terms when googling. (ito of skin vs skinsuit)
#1696
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Ha! That's good to know. I'd never put much thought into it.
48 is overkill for sure, even on the rear. But, you can still use them. I've seen people lace large count hubs to lower count rims. 48 is evenly divisible by 12, 16, and 24, so you could easily use 12, 16, or 24 hole rims. And if you get creative, you can do even more. It's called Mismatched Wheel Building: Mismatched Bicycle Wheels by Benjamin Lewis
I'd start a post in Bike Mechanics for some good advice.
I'd start a post in Bike Mechanics for some good advice.
#1697
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Back to Skinsuits.
Nike, Under Armor, Reebok, etc... all make compression shirts in short and long sleves for men, women, and kids. You can combine these with your normal bib shorts. This combo is MUCH cheaper than buying a full on skinsuit AND it's easier to get in and out of. The compression tops were like $25-30 last time I bought some.
A story (I always have a story): A girl from DLV raced for her collegiate team as well. She was headed to collegiate track nationals. The team issued her a standard bib and jersey but no skinsuits. She was required to wear team colors at Nationals. I went and bought her a color-matched blue Under Armor long sleeve compression top and we took it to the local collegiate T-shirt shop and had the school logo screen printed on there. She wore it with her team bib shorts. Boom...instant skinsuit.
I do the same thing on weekly track days a lot of the time.
Nike, Under Armor, Reebok, etc... all make compression shirts in short and long sleves for men, women, and kids. You can combine these with your normal bib shorts. This combo is MUCH cheaper than buying a full on skinsuit AND it's easier to get in and out of. The compression tops were like $25-30 last time I bought some.
A story (I always have a story): A girl from DLV raced for her collegiate team as well. She was headed to collegiate track nationals. The team issued her a standard bib and jersey but no skinsuits. She was required to wear team colors at Nationals. I went and bought her a color-matched blue Under Armor long sleeve compression top and we took it to the local collegiate T-shirt shop and had the school logo screen printed on there. She wore it with her team bib shorts. Boom...instant skinsuit.
I do the same thing on weekly track days a lot of the time.
Last edited by carleton; 12-29-14 at 01:30 PM.
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Ha! That's good to know. I'd never put much thought into it.
48 is overkill for sure, even on the rear. But, you can still use them. I've seen people lace large count hubs to lower count rims. 48 is evenly divisible by 12, 16, and 24, so you could easily use 12, 16, or 24 hole rims. And if you get creative, you can do even more. It's called Mismatched Wheel Building: Mismatched Bicycle Wheels by Benjamin Lewis
I'd start a post in Bike Mechanics for some good advice.
48 is overkill for sure, even on the rear. But, you can still use them. I've seen people lace large count hubs to lower count rims. 48 is evenly divisible by 12, 16, and 24, so you could easily use 12, 16, or 24 hole rims. And if you get creative, you can do even more. It's called Mismatched Wheel Building: Mismatched Bicycle Wheels by Benjamin Lewis
I'd start a post in Bike Mechanics for some good advice.
#1699
Senior Member
I also tested full length compression tights at the end of my wind tunnel session and noticed a possible slight improvement which is confirmed by the ERO guys quote and the studies I linked. Skin is slow (except compared to gloves for some reason).
I spend a lot of time reading journal articles on aerodynamics and training mostly - including weekly printing one I find interesting which my wife and I then read and discuss.
If there are any topics you are interested in I can try and hunt some down. I have access to various Sports Science journal sites via my wife so can usually get the full transcripts.
If there are any topics you are interested in I can try and hunt some down. I have access to various Sports Science journal sites via my wife so can usually get the full transcripts.
#1700
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tldr - Sleeves are faster. Just a couple of studies on the topic...
From Streamlining the time trial apparel of cyclists: the Nike Swift Spin project - Brownlie - 2009 - Sports Technology - Wiley Online Library
And from Aerodynamics of Track Cycling by By Lindsey Underwood
https://ir.canterbury.ac.nz/bitstream...s_fulltext.pdf
From Streamlining the time trial apparel of cyclists: the Nike Swift Spin project - Brownlie - 2009 - Sports Technology - Wiley Online Library
And from Aerodynamics of Track Cycling by By Lindsey Underwood
https://ir.canterbury.ac.nz/bitstream...s_fulltext.pdf
No problem!