Training to Increase Speed and Stamina
05-13-22, 04:13 PM
#51
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<snip>
FTP almost a useless metric for ultra endurance, the fatigue curve is what really matters. Rider's drop power or decay over time to hugely varying degrees. Some might drop 10-12% every doubling of time and a really fit rider might only drop 5% every doubling of time. After 4 hours and two doubllings, the difference can be large and at 8 hours massive. CTL seems to be the best proxy. As an example, I might struggle a lot to ride a 400k or 600k brevet initially with rider with a superior FTP but after 3-4 hours, assuming my endurance is better, we are then equal in terms of relative effort because their power has decayed more than mine. At 10 hours, he is asking me to slow down. Riders fatigue at different rates for many reasons, one primary one is training and the ability to burn fat because long distance is energy limited more than FTP limited. There isn't much information out there for older riders out there. The fatigue constant τf in TrainingPeaks is 7 days by default IIRC. I had found that mine was at least 10 days and probably 12 days, I never figured that out. Age? I had contacted Andrew Coggan asking if that was possible and he said yes but did not explain. Whether the fatigue delayed slower due to age or my volume of training? That constant has a big effect on the CTL and TSB display.
<snip>
https://alancouzens.com/blog/benchmarks.html
https://alancouzens.com/endurancecor...atigue-curves/
https://alancouzens.com/endurancecor...fat-oxidation/
FTP almost a useless metric for ultra endurance, the fatigue curve is what really matters. Rider's drop power or decay over time to hugely varying degrees. Some might drop 10-12% every doubling of time and a really fit rider might only drop 5% every doubling of time. After 4 hours and two doubllings, the difference can be large and at 8 hours massive. CTL seems to be the best proxy. As an example, I might struggle a lot to ride a 400k or 600k brevet initially with rider with a superior FTP but after 3-4 hours, assuming my endurance is better, we are then equal in terms of relative effort because their power has decayed more than mine. At 10 hours, he is asking me to slow down. Riders fatigue at different rates for many reasons, one primary one is training and the ability to burn fat because long distance is energy limited more than FTP limited. There isn't much information out there for older riders out there. The fatigue constant τf in TrainingPeaks is 7 days by default IIRC. I had found that mine was at least 10 days and probably 12 days, I never figured that out. Age? I had contacted Andrew Coggan asking if that was possible and he said yes but did not explain. Whether the fatigue delayed slower due to age or my volume of training? That constant has a big effect on the CTL and TSB display.
<snip>
https://alancouzens.com/blog/benchmarks.html
https://alancouzens.com/endurancecor...atigue-curves/
https://alancouzens.com/endurancecor...fat-oxidation/
I'm perhaps a bit of an outlier, or maybe I'm just good at pacing and eating. On events, the longer they are, the better I do. My favorite event takes me about 10 hours. The bib numbers are 1-up by rider's racing age, the oldest rider being #1 and usually about 80 y.o. As this event goes on, I find myself riding with gradually increasing bib numbers. My most memorable efforts have been in the last 30 miles. Similarly on a 400k, in the last 100k the riders I'd see were younger and more experienced than I and I'd either fall in with them or drop them. However, I don't recover well, so I'm a day rider with a relatively low CTL for what I do. I work endlessly on different recovery strategies, but I'm still slow. I just can't do 300 miles a week like a lot of people. 150 has been about my upper limit.
The last two of those Couzens links don't seem to contain what they used to contain. Most links inside them doesn't open for me.
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05-13-22, 06:00 PM
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Thanks so much for all this post, not just the part I'm quoting. It's very helpful and is stuff I've been curious about for a long time.
I'm perhaps a bit of an outlier, or maybe I'm just good at pacing and eating. On events, the longer they are, the better I do. My favorite event takes me about 10 hours. The bib numbers are 1-up by rider's racing age, the oldest rider being #1 and usually about 80 y.o. As this event goes on, I find myself riding with gradually increasing bib numbers. My most memorable efforts have been in the last 30 miles. Similarly on a 400k, in the last 100k the riders I'd see were younger and more experienced than I and I'd either fall in with them or drop them. However, I don't recover well, so I'm a day rider with a relatively low CTL for what I do. I work endlessly on different recovery strategies, but I'm still slow. I just can't do 300 miles a week like a lot of people. 150 has been about my upper limit.
The last two of those Couzens links don't seem to contain what they used to contain. Most links inside them doesn't open for me.
I'm perhaps a bit of an outlier, or maybe I'm just good at pacing and eating. On events, the longer they are, the better I do. My favorite event takes me about 10 hours. The bib numbers are 1-up by rider's racing age, the oldest rider being #1 and usually about 80 y.o. As this event goes on, I find myself riding with gradually increasing bib numbers. My most memorable efforts have been in the last 30 miles. Similarly on a 400k, in the last 100k the riders I'd see were younger and more experienced than I and I'd either fall in with them or drop them. However, I don't recover well, so I'm a day rider with a relatively low CTL for what I do. I work endlessly on different recovery strategies, but I'm still slow. I just can't do 300 miles a week like a lot of people. 150 has been about my upper limit.
The last two of those Couzens links don't seem to contain what they used to contain. Most links inside them doesn't open for me.
Two important reasons for better fatigue resistance. One is high volume consistently for years, partly because this allows you to burn more fat at all intensities and long distance stuff is about energy efficiency and utilization. Second one not surprising to you is keeping glycogen levels up while racing or riding, which as a former low carb person is something I am working on or should say experimenting. I have used branched cyclic dextrin and maltodextrin for cost savings in the past, but never needed a ton of carbs while randonneuring. I could never get the malto to mix easily. I am experimenting with Scratch labs powder that is almost all cyclic dextrin and I add fructose powder. It seems I can tolerate more concentration than in the past, but we will see tomorrow's 400k. You obviously do not have a huge decay in performance or said another way have a high fatigue resistance. I'm probably like an old mule or pack horse, training volume is what gets me that slower decay in performance as events get longer.
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05-13-22, 06:55 PM
#53
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I'll see if I can dig up the blog post.
Two important reasons for better fatigue resistance. One is high volume consistently for years, partly because this allows you to burn more fat at all intensities and long distance stuff is about energy efficiency and utilization. Second one not surprising to you is keeping glycogen levels up while racing or riding, which as a former low carb person is something I am working on or should say experimenting. I have used branched cyclic dextrin and maltodextrin for cost savings in the past, but never needed a ton of carbs while randonneuring. I could never get the malto to mix easily. I am experimenting with Scratch labs powder that is almost all cyclic dextrin and I add fructose powder. It seems I can tolerate more concentration than in the past, but we will see tomorrow's 400k. You obviously do not have a huge decay in performance or said another way have a high fatigue resistance. I'm probably like an old mule or pack horse, training volume is what gets me that slower decay in performance as events get longer.
Two important reasons for better fatigue resistance. One is high volume consistently for years, partly because this allows you to burn more fat at all intensities and long distance stuff is about energy efficiency and utilization. Second one not surprising to you is keeping glycogen levels up while racing or riding, which as a former low carb person is something I am working on or should say experimenting. I have used branched cyclic dextrin and maltodextrin for cost savings in the past, but never needed a ton of carbs while randonneuring. I could never get the malto to mix easily. I am experimenting with Scratch labs powder that is almost all cyclic dextrin and I add fructose powder. It seems I can tolerate more concentration than in the past, but we will see tomorrow's 400k. You obviously do not have a huge decay in performance or said another way have a high fatigue resistance. I'm probably like an old mule or pack horse, training volume is what gets me that slower decay in performance as events get longer.
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05-14-22, 09:50 PM
#54
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I do not have the discipline to take on a formal training program but do rest days, moderate days, a distance ride and an all out shortish ride weekly. I like to do short sprints all out to get the heart rate up near max for a short period on the moderate days. Yesterday I did my all out ride at 33 miles at an average speed of 19.2 with a mere 500’ of climbing. Max heart rate 182 on a short climb with an average of 160. Resting heart rate is far from a trained athlete at 70. Still think I am doing ok.
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05-16-22, 08:20 AM
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For the results matter people, today I turn 73 today, yay, and yesterday competed in a 20Km time trial. 3rd of 7 participants in the 70+ age group. The podium had a 14 second spread so I wondered where I could find 14 more seconds over the 20km flat course. And I was 2 seconds off my PR on this course which I did in 2016. So in 6 years, not getting any slower and this race is early in my training cycle. Our age group had the largest turnout - go figure.
How to get faster? Event goals, competition, weight control, body composition, position, equipment selection/improvement, structured training, keep the rubber side down and etc. For the more prolific posters in this thread
, I highly recommend reading Hutchinson’s - Faster. Ask yourself a simple question before you take an action, will this make me faster or slower?
Here is a pic of me on Saturday doing a leg opener (pre warmup) the day before the TT. My race wheel setup is a disc / trispoke and NoPins skinsuit and of course, the “up to” 15 watt saving aero socks and booties.
How to get faster? Event goals, competition, weight control, body composition, position, equipment selection/improvement, structured training, keep the rubber side down and etc. For the more prolific posters in this thread
, I highly recommend reading Hutchinson’s - Faster. Ask yourself a simple question before you take an action, will this make me faster or slower?Here is a pic of me on Saturday doing a leg opener (pre warmup) the day before the TT. My race wheel setup is a disc / trispoke and NoPins skinsuit and of course, the “up to” 15 watt saving aero socks and booties.
Last edited by Hermes; 05-16-22 at 12:45 PM.
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05-16-22, 08:52 AM
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For the results matter people, today I turn 73 today, yay, and yesterday competed in a 20Km time trial. 3rd of 7 participants in the 70+ age group. The podium had a 14 second spread so I wondered where I could find 14 more seconds over the 20km flat course. And I was 2 seconds off my PR on this course which I did in 2016. So in 6 years, not getting any slower and this race is early in my training cycle. Our age group had the largest turnout - go figure.
How to get faster? Event goals, competition, weight control, muscle composition, position, equipment selection/improvement, structured training, keep the rubber side down and etc. For the more prolific posters in this thread, I highly recommend reading Hutchinson’s - Faster. Ask yourself a simple question before you take an action, will this make me faster or slower?
Here is a pic of me on Saturday doing a leg opener (pre warmup) the day before the TT. My race wheel setup is a disc / trispoke and NoPins skinsuit and of course, the “up to” 15 watt saving aero socks and booties.
How to get faster? Event goals, competition, weight control, muscle composition, position, equipment selection/improvement, structured training, keep the rubber side down and etc. For the more prolific posters in this thread
, I highly recommend reading Hutchinson’s - Faster. Ask yourself a simple question before you take an action, will this make me faster or slower?Here is a pic of me on Saturday doing a leg opener (pre warmup) the day before the TT. My race wheel setup is a disc / trispoke and NoPins skinsuit and of course, the “up to” 15 watt saving aero socks and booties.
And happy birthday!
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05-16-22, 09:23 AM
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05-16-22, 09:27 AM
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05-16-22, 10:28 AM
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05-16-22, 06:42 PM
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For the results matter people, today I turn 73 today, yay, and yesterday competed in a 20Km time trial. 3rd of 7 participants in the 70+ age group. The podium had a 14 second spread so I wondered where I could find 14 more seconds over the 20km flat course. And I was 2 seconds off my PR on this course which I did in 2016. So in 6 years, not getting any slower and this race is early in my training cycle. Our age group had the largest turnout - go figure.
How to get faster? Event goals, competition, weight control, body composition, position, equipment selection/improvement, structured training, keep the rubber side down and etc. For the more prolific posters in this thread, I highly recommend reading Hutchinson’s - Faster. Ask yourself a simple question before you take an action, will this make me faster or slower?
Here is a pic of me on Saturday doing a leg opener (pre warmup) the day before the TT. My race wheel setup is a disc / trispoke and NoPins skinsuit and of course, the “up to” 15 watt saving aero socks and booties.
How to get faster? Event goals, competition, weight control, body composition, position, equipment selection/improvement, structured training, keep the rubber side down and etc. For the more prolific posters in this thread
, I highly recommend reading Hutchinson’s - Faster. Ask yourself a simple question before you take an action, will this make me faster or slower?Here is a pic of me on Saturday doing a leg opener (pre warmup) the day before the TT. My race wheel setup is a disc / trispoke and NoPins skinsuit and of course, the “up to” 15 watt saving aero socks and booties.
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05-17-22, 12:51 PM
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Yesterday, my wife and I drove for 2 hours to get to a mountain trail where it wasn't raining and had a very nice hike. As many of you know we ride a road tandem. My wife hikes as quickly as she can, and I carry a pack heavy enough that I have to struggle to keep up with her, thus imitating our tandem experience. Our hiking time was a little better than it was the last time we did this one back in '19. It's been tough getting it back after the big pandemic years.
Doing a hard day hike the day after our big weekend ride has been our secret weapon for years. We get a good aerobic workout largely because we are using different muscles in different ranges of motion. In a way it's a freebie aerobic workout with a strength training component. Legs are hurting pretty good today, but not so bad we can't do a moderate steady-state ride, more aerobic conditioning. We get a little stronger and gain a little stamina. Next month, we'll turn 150.
Downside of the hike is we spent as many hours in the car as we did on the hike, but whaddya gonna do in the PNW?
Doing a hard day hike the day after our big weekend ride has been our secret weapon for years. We get a good aerobic workout largely because we are using different muscles in different ranges of motion. In a way it's a freebie aerobic workout with a strength training component. Legs are hurting pretty good today, but not so bad we can't do a moderate steady-state ride, more aerobic conditioning. We get a little stronger and gain a little stamina. Next month, we'll turn 150.
Downside of the hike is we spent as many hours in the car as we did on the hike, but whaddya gonna do in the PNW?
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05-17-22, 03:12 PM
#62
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My current goal and favorite event ride, 9000'+, 154 miles, 800 rider limit, assigns bib numbers 1-up in order of rider age, #1 being the oldest. I've ridden it a few times since I turned 70 and had bib numbers under 20. Every time, I've been the first rider to come in with an under-20 number. I'm riding it again this year. My training's almost on track. Not quite but almost. I hope won't be 105° at the bottom of the last pass like it was when I rode it with my wife on our tandem. We'll see how it goes.
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05-18-22, 11:16 AM
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Here is a workout I did yesterday. I am not suggesting anyone else do this workout but it is designed to increase strength, threshold power and anaerobic power. It also shows the disconnect between power and heart rate. And I did it on my time trial bike and generated the higher power in the aerobars. So it also achieves another goal that is strength and adaptation in the time trial position.
