mustachiod

in some neighborhoods, that would give them even more reason to attack you

khutch

A literal eye for eye justice system would be barbaric and too harsh most of the time yet far too mild sometimes. In this case, for instance. The OP was not injured yet the behavior is unacceptable. An eye for eye justice system would let the perpetrator go free and then secretly hire someone to follow him/her around and shoot a blowgun dart in front of their face at a random moment as they went about their normal life. That would have no effect at all on their behavior. What is needed is a punishment that is disproportionate to the actual deed but proportionate to the potential for harm that results from the deed. This "perp" was probably just a young person doing the sort of idiotic things we all did at that age though most of us weren't that bad. Put the kid in a blaze orange suit and make him pick up trash along a highway for three weeks and then spend evenings serving soup at a homeless shelter. That might get through, a near miss with a blow gun dart certainly won't. When it was first implemented in around 3000 BC the eye for eye system was an advance, a reigning in of the kind of "justice" typified by the urban gangbanger culture we have today and the warrior code of barbarian Europe and the notion that a cyclist should be free to return fire with a firearm when attacked by a blowgun. In reality our modern political and justice systems are surprisingly little advanced over the ancient Sumerian system, yet even we can do better than eye for eye.

In theory I have no quarrel with the death penalty. Maybe that seems inconsistent since I don't support eye for eye justice that would inflict lesser injuries on guilty parties. In my opinion that would be a foolish consistency however and some individuals simply deserve to die for their deeds. Unfortunately I must reject the death penalty because human beings cannot administer it fairly. When DNA testing became available the attorneys for one Illinois death row inmate demanded and got a test of his DNA against DNA evidence collected at the crime scene. It proved the inmate was innocent. In short order every death row inmate that could be tested was tested and a surprising number were innocent, I don't recall the percentage. I would imagine that other states had similar results when DNA testing came in. The state of Texas once argued before the US Supreme court that one of their death row inmates had no right to a review of new evidence that might exonerate him because he had been fairly convicted before the evidence came to light and the state had the right to execute him whether he was guilty or not! This was reported on NPR in the 1990's. It is perfectly clear that states have and will murder innocent people in the name of "justice" because they are incompetent, or worse. That is the most horrific thing I can imagine in a democracy so I can no longer support the death penalty.

I honestly think that cameras and recorders have a great potential to gather the documentation needed to make it possible to identify and convict the offenders in all kinds of crimes like this, and far worse. I hope that in time systems like this will be implemented -- in public areas where the right to privacy is not compromised. It is far better than vigilante justice or the present impotence of our justice system in most cases like this, the OP's included. I understand the desire to take matters into your own hands though. When I was commuting by car every day there was hardly a day went by that I didn't fantasize about mounting a paint ball machine gun that would fire paint remover filled paint balls out of the grill of my car so that I could say thank you to the most deserving of my fellow commuters by redecorating the rear of their vehicles! That would be satisfying but a video uplink to the DMV would be far less corrosive of my character and society. If widely implemented I think it would put an end to most automotive misbehavior and it would help cyclists too.

Ken

Loose Chain

If anyone shoots me with a pellet rifle or an air rifle or an arrow or dart type weapon of any sort they better make sure I am down and done for because when I get up, it is going to be my turn.

JFlurett

I was wondering when this would be stated. I find it interesting that people are horrified by the chance that an innocent is killed, but do not seem to be AS bothered by the fact that a guilty person who is not put to death going out and killing someone again. Or some other crime.

I'd be interested to know the stats ( theory here because we know it could never happen) on innocent people being put to death versus the number of crimes of people who would have been put to death after they are released.

For starters I wonder which is the greater innocent death toll?



To address a different side of this: I'm almost certain (did discuss this in a college class a few years ago) that those who were innocent were 1) in the south 2) black 3) had been sentenced 30-40 years ago.

Do not take this as I'm saying it's OK, but I would imagine that due to a change in the times the number of innocents would be less today. However, maybe that's just wishful thinking to a man who got out of Georgia and hasn't been back in a while.

RJM

I am a cyclist, a gun owner and married to a public defender so I have some insight into some of the issues that would come from a cyclist shooting at a car that just shot a dart at you. You won't get away with blasting at a car leaving the scene of a crime, which is what you would be doing. I have no problem with carrying a gun (my carry gun is a sig p232) but I don't carry it while on a bike. I wouldn't give somebody a hard time for doing so either, but for me I don't want the weight while I ride. A carry gun is a defensive weapon, not an offensive weapon, and using it against a car of people as they speed away is in an offensive manner. The gun owner needs to think his/her life is in grave danger at the time they use the gun, and if the car is fleeing the scene the threat is no longer a threat.

I really think the solution to acts of violence against cyclists is for the cyclist to record their rides with cameras and for the cyclist to keep aware of license plates. It at leasts gives the police something to go on in an investigation. If the perps got caught and were convicted of a serious crime, and the news media was involved, I think the incidents would be reduced rather dramatically.

khutch

I said nothing about that so you are making a completely unfounded and incorrect assumption. In my opinion people who would otherwise be given the death penalty should be put in prison for life, without parole. And prison systems should be upgraded so that these inmates cannot harm the prison staff. Our justice system being what it is, it will continue to sentence innocent people to this fate. However if they are not killed they at least have some kind of life and they retain the possibility of being exonerated, and compensated, at some point. You can do that for the living innocents, you cannot do that for the ones you have executed. Make no mistake about it, I want violent criminals removed from our society until it can be shown that they have truly reformed or are dead. I don't have any qualms about "warehousing" violent offenders who continue to present a danger to society. Releasing them so they can kill, ****, or mutilate another victim is as bad as executing an innocent person. It must not happen, yet currently it commonly does.

I think that DNA testing probably has reduced the incidence of convictions of innocents in capital (and other) crimes. DNA is not available in every case though so I am sure that the same old police tactics that convicted innocents in the past continue to do so today. In fact I happened to catch a TV report last weekend on the "science" behind arson investigations. As it turns out there is none. Many of the signs of arson that investigators have used for decades to accuse, convict, and in many cases execute people for arson crimes have been shown by scientific investigations to be false. They occur naturally in a high percentage of building fires. People have literally been executed based on what amounts to old wife's tales and continue to be to this day. The report included coverage of a woman who was accused of murdering her children by arson and who was facing the death penalty. The situation is a lot like the Salem witch trials, modern style.

How many more practices like this are deeply embedded in our police and criminal justice system? People generally try to do the best they can though there are horrific exceptions among our police, judges, etc too. Humans are unable to live up to our own high standards of justice and fairness even when they try with all their might however. Killing innocent people for crimes they never committed and in some cases which were not committed at all is unacceptable to me. Releasing violent criminals into society so they can rinse and repeat is just as unacceptable. I say let's do neither. Warehouse them all and release the ones that can later be shown to be innocent.

Ken

phillyskyline

This has happened in the suburbs around here, too--joggers and bikers. They actually caught the guy who was driving the car, but the freak shooting the blow darts is still on the lam.

rex_kramer

Amazing the things people will come up with to harm other people for no reason at all.

RT

Awright fellas, let's keep the capital punishment discourse to ourselves, or take it to another thread in A&S. I as the OP am exercising my right to moderate this thread before it gets ugly. Let's keep it on topic with input about how to avoid confrontation or how to nab the perps without the use of firearms. I think we've covered most of it already. This post was as much a warning to others in my area was it was to glean information from others who have had run-ins with the underbelly of society.

RJM, I think you have put an exclamation point on the term 'weight weenie'

JFlurett

https://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/natur...es-quotes.html

redfb

i haven't heard of this, all i get are shouts and people closely running up on me in their cars. If someone shot me with a dart, or pellet gun i'd just catch up at the red light and beat the living piss out of them (boxing background) and whoever else is in the car. That's why you carry a heavy lock, knife, and a pocket pistol for the different level of threats! I've never had to use any though, almost on some redneck old man who got out but quickly got back in his car haha

dynodonn 

My one and only experience with an incident similar to the OP's was with a car load of teenagers, and one armed with an AirSoft. My instinct was not to catch the perps to do a major beat down, but to make a quick getaway when the carload circled around for a second shot.

My gratify moment came a few months later, when I read in the local paper, that a teen had been arrested for shooting a pellet gun at his neighbor's house that was only a few blocks from where my incident took place.

JoeyBike

If you think about it, we are not the dominant species on this planet. We are here to serve microbes and insects. And they will be around long after we eradicate ourselves with our own stupidity.

CliftonGK1

Nice thought, but what about when there's no red light anywhere close? The people shooting riders up here (Seattle) with darts last year were doing drive-bys on roads where they could easily just speed away. And by the time you realize that there's a 3" dart hanging from you, the car is gone and you can't get a plate.

redfb

well then your pretty much screwed, unless you have a short temper, wartime ptsd, and have all the items in your bag as listed, then you fire back at them!

ghettocruiser

Nuts.

Even the boyz on Don Mills Road just scream and sometimes fender me into the curb.

Pneumatic projectiles are (fortunately) probably beyond them.

CliftonGK1

Have you considered that maybe you shouldn't own a firearm?
Just a suggestion.

redfb

lol it doesnt mean i dont think about my actions before i do something. besides its just a .22 just enough to kill a dog.

CliftonGK1

Not to turn this into a firearms argument, but you're really not thinking about your actions if you're even considering firing on a vehicle, even with "just a .22".
Let's assume an effective range of (max.) 70 yards for an accurate hit with a .22 pistol. (At that range, you'll chip the paint if you're accurate enough to hit the vehicle.) 70 yards is 210 feet. Assuming a vehicle travelling at only 35mph (51 fps), you have approximately 4 seconds to
1) recognize that you've been hit with a dart
2) assess the safety of firing at your assailants*
3) draw your weapon
4) aim and fire

*Are you certain that if you fire, you'll hit the vehicle? If not, where will your shot land? There's no pedestrians around, are there? What about 50yds past the vehicle? 150yds? A .22 can still cause serious injury at > 300yds. (~2.0g projectile travelling ~500fps) Is the entire trajectory clear?

Harvey2

I hope no one shoots you or at you no matter if you think you'll get up or not. Mainly these kids would be using some welt-mart crap gun so your chances would be better. I've seen and shot air pistols in 9mm. A neat custom pistol for a cool custom price. I don't think you'd get up from that one any easier than anything over a .32 but that's not the point. They're idiots for doing it. But I'd rather you Not be hit But still, shall we say, get your turn.

Harv

redfb

not to turn this into a pissing match, but hell yes i could hit a moving target doing 35 with a .22


besides it was a joke, i carried the pistol for dogs and because my commute was through the ghetto. I have since traded it off for a shotgun for the house (in case intruders)

uciflylow

I cary a very small .22 for dog protection myself. I will ONLY load it with the rat shot loads and have ONLY ever fired it into the ground in front of a dog that I couldn't shout down. The number one reason I use the rat shot is that I want to be sure my shot stops rite where it hits! I am responsible for every bullet I fire, wether it hits an intended target or unintended target. (Sorry to say, I was bitten by a dog in April that I had used HALT on two times in the past. My mistake there was not calling the sherrif about the dog the first time. I will not be the brunt of another dog attack!)

As far a the darts, pellets, etc. Our best bet is to get as much information as possible and call the police!

josephjhaney

I am totally hearing where you are coming from. I don't go looking for trouble, but I won't back down from it either. I HATE the pacifist rep that cyclist have, and sadly, that's where a lot of it goes wrong. I have had people yelling at me as they drive by, not ONE will GET OUT OF THE CAR when I catch them at the light. I had one guy lay on his horn as he went by, I waved with a single finger to let him know I'm not fond of horn blowers, he rolled down his window and proceeded to tell me he ought to "kick my ass" for flipping him off. I told him to get out of the car, and lets go, I was getting off the bike, he started arguing that I shouldn't have been in the left lane, blah blah blah, then drove away muttering about how "lucky" was was. Yeah, that's why you stayed in your car and drove off, cause I'm lucky. I can add he'd have made it halfway out of his door before I would have pinned him there and asked him, nicely, if this was really what he wanted to do.

I have a conceal carry, I live in PA, I don't currently carry on the bike, but I'm thinking of getting a smaller firearm I could put comfortably on my person while I rode. I can tell you I'd be carrying my 9mm if I were EVER fired at. I don't think I could or would shoot to kill for being fired at with a pellet, but it would depend. A lot depends on the attitude and threat level at the time. Keep in mind, the person you are dealing with has 2 weapons, 1 is a car, the other whatever they are shooting at you with. The potential for them to actually cause you to lose control of the bike and get run over by another car, or by them, is enough to qualify that in my mind as assault with a deadly weapon.

At any rate, this has not happened to me, and I have to admit, I was shocked to see it here. Wow. Just wow.

Joe

KD5NRH

Hmmm...next time I'm out at our land, I may have to try this. No pavement available to shoot from, but I think I can find a flat stretch of dirt with a good backstop. The .32ACP should be easy, but there may be a bit more of an issue with the .357 snubnose using full-power loads.

nelson249

So, they hit you with a car and steal your nice insanely heavy artillery.