OldsCOOL

Max Headroom

dgodave

Oh wait... thats taken.

How about...

Merx Wattmaster

robertorolfo

I'm glad I'm not the only one! She is super cute and I always wondered if Lance wasn't a bit jealous. But enough of the gossip...

I don't think anyone believes that actual activities are really similar to one another, and that's kind of the point. Sports are sometimes seen as a healthy outlet for certain instincts that don't have much of a place in modern society. The idea is to get it out in a relatively harmless way, like through a sporting event, rather than something much more terrible like violence or warfare.

SJM205

Exactly what I thought when they discovered tumors on my liver, kidney, spleen, spine, lungs and brain. "It's just a hangnail."

I don't excuse his behavior and said his ban should stand. However, I also give him credit for raising awareness and funding that has probably lead to treatments that saved my life.

Mostly, I'm surprised that no one took the Pete Rose bait.

McBTC

Seymore Butt

Oneder

Every viewpoint you see on tv comes from some rich corporate type, half of them not even living here, who wants to dispossess everyone but themselves. None of them are any better than trump is. One dollar = one vote, and democracy is just a scam to make dumb people feel like they have some kind of say in things so they will vote differently next election instead of trying to actually take real power for themselves.

Mooo

Over several years, Lance and some of his most vocal defenders immediately associated his success with cancer - if you questioned his success you were accused of "loving cancer."

Presumably lesser maladies could be used to justify smaller swindles, thus the hangnail (minor) excuse for a dine and dash (comparatively minor relative to what's been sworn to under oath). This is patently ridiculous, and that was the point.

Certainly wasn't trying to equate a hangnail to cancer, and apologize if it came off that way.

kunsunoke 

Lance had metastatic testicular cancer (embryonal cell carcinoma). The cancer is eminently treatable with cisplaten and modern chemo cocktails and isn't the death sentence it was in Brian Piccolo's day. So props to him for surviving.

I don't need a little brain cancer to know how bad it is, my mother-in-law struggled with breast cancer for ten years before she died of it. My uncle lives with prostate cancer. My father has had extensive surgery for colon cancer. My neighbor across the street died of glioblastoma (actual brain cancer, minimal survival rate). There are a lot of cancer survivors that don't act like king **** afterward. They don't even come close to exploiting their illness the way Lance did.

The cancer was cured, thanks to the miracle of modern medicine. The TdF part was a miracle made possible by steroids, EPO, blood transfusions, team-mates who were similarly altered (sometimes unwillingly) and generous donations to key UCI members (now where did I put those laboratory samples again?). And we would be remiss not to discuss the arm twisting, thuggery, intimidation, slander, defamation and endless numbers of nuisance lawsuits.

But by far, the most spectacular aspect of that miracle recovery was Armstrong's tireless leveraging of his Cancer Jesus status against criminal prosecution. Pure Chemotherapy against federal investigations, in other words. It worked in that case - but it didn't work with USADA, since Tygart couldn't be bought like Barack Obama and George W. Bush.

The only hall Lance Armstrong deserves to be in is the one that leads to a six-by-eight cell. You can argue the point but I disagree.

McBTC

EPO was banned in cycling in the early 90s but it was first used in medicine before that... so, it's not insane to be somewhat skeptical even of cyclists who were not forced to admit their defalcations when it can never be proven one way or another.

texaspandj

Dead wrong.
Cycling, believe it or not is Just a sport. So is football, baseball, basketball, hockey, and to a lesser extent golf, bowling and nascar. I don't care what each individual player thinks or does off their field of play. Their off the field actions affect them and their standing not mine.
National policy affects Me.
BTW America deserves the donald.

DMC707

Glioblastoma is what my father succumbed to at age 61 after a lifetime of good health and fitness as well as serving his country --- still bitter about it






This I appreciate too ----- yes , Lance is a modern day snake oil salesman, but the Livestrong foundation has affected many lives for the positive



Don't want to go P&R, but I like the Donald too ------- The opposite political party has thrown everything they can at him and all they really come up with is a floozy who may or may not have taken a few bucks to keep quiet a few years back? Everybody loves JFK but rarely mentions the Secret Service escorting ladies through underground tunnels ---- but he was relatively young and hip at the time, as well as a hero against tyrannical Cuba -- and sadly gunned down before anything too controversial could be brought to bear against him in a social light -- so remains a near martyr forever

Rocket-Sauce 

This.

to paraphrase Henry Kissinger, cycling got thrown under the bus in the court of public opinion because the stakes are so low.

Put a microscope on any high stakes sport and the dirt will be revealed.

RobbieTunes

Uh-oh, I'm nearly 60:

66.30 mi Solo ride, 24-lb Klein plus snack-loaded bag and 2 full bottles.
I think it was the multi-tool that weighed me down.

Avg Moving Speed 17.5 mph, Max Speed 29.3 mph (I sure don't remember going that fast).
Avg Cadence 68 rpm, Max Cadence 96 rpm (I must have missed a shift, could not have been more then 2 revs)
Avg HR 167 bpm Max HR 234 bpm (this is down from 2 months ago)

Same here. I am a lot more scared on a 2.5 story / 9 pitch than I ever was toting a rifle or chasing a running dishtowel into an apartment building. It's not going up, it's the coming down. I should wear my HR monitor the next time I'm arguing with a storm chaser on some 9/12 pitch while the yoga-pant Mom below is waiting below, arms folded.

robertorolfo

You said you are a vet, no? What do you think about JFK's exploits in the Pacific vs bone spurs? Just curious...

DMC707

Edited to add : -- getting dangerously close to P&R, but i like the subject matter, hit me up in a PM or we could carry it over to P&R rather than muddy the waters of this thread anymore. The people in P&R are mean though -- LOL

SJM205

Many heroes in the military A few became politicians. Without going P&R here, read the stories of Daniel Inouye or John McCain, or Tammy Duckworth. I'll leave it at that.

DIMcyclist

Ya know... I've been an astute follower of global politics (and more recently, global business & commerce) since my university days. I developed a reasonable political literacy back then, having taken a lot of history & poli-sci to fill out my distributions... And I comment on this forum as much to escape left-wing wussiness, mindless right-wing blather, and debunked-but-unkillable zombie politics, zombie politicians, & zombie ideas that find their way into too much contemporary media, as I do for information (given and received) about the bikes I ride...

But if you've brought President Bonespurs into this thread, I vote this thread should just be scrapped altogether.

-

Mooo

Agreed.

Call it Godwin's Corollary.

RobbieTunes

After Vietnam, the % of ex-military serving in elected office has steadily declined. It seems the near-opposite is more attractive to voters. I'm not sure it portends well, but this is not the forum for it. Perhaps the learned ability to be flexible, adapt, collaborate and overcome hindrances has not the value it once possessed.

Any C&V wrench knows the value of this! (there's my tie-in....)

As competitive as the pro racing circuit is, I wonder if we'll ever have another dominating clean team or rider? (as I segue back to the topic)....

I've heard that gas inhalation is now being used as well as other methods of tricking the body engine....

canklecat

Since most of us who are interested in C&V (where this thread originated, since it'll probably be bumped to another forum now) are old curmudgeons, the health issues confronted by LeMond and Armstrong resonate with me. I can understand how life threatening injuries and illnesses can tempt us to flout conventional ethics and morality.

I'm very influenced and motivated by my own health issues and the history of health issues in my family, ranging from heart and lung disease to cancer. Respiratory and thyroid disease run in my family and, sure enough, I got 'em all: chronic bouts with pneumonia, asthma, early symptoms of encroaching COPD; and Hashimoto's disease.

We don't really have a significant history of cancer, but prostate cancer finally killed my dad a couple of years ago. I never really took it too seriously because prostate cancer is generally easily treatable, especially with early detection. And while he was uncomfortable primarily from needing a catheter full time, he seemed to be doing okay. He worked full time into his late 70s at the university where he'd spent a career. He was one of those people who needed to work and didn't really enjoy a life of leisure -- I think he'd gotten that out of his system in his 20s-30s during a wanderlust period in Europe. But after a decade of successful treatment and remission, his cancer metastasized quickly and he was gone in a month.

This morning, for the first time ever, I had difficulty urinating. And it made me wonder.

On top of that I still have chronic pain and some disability from a 2001 car wreck that broke my back and neck, leaving me with a permanently splintered C2.

This stuff dang sure motivates me to not only take better care of myself, but to take advantage of whatever time I have left.

When I resumed cycling in 2015, my only goal was to ride my 35 lb comfort hybrid around the block without passing out. At the time any sense of being competitive was so far from my mind it was hard to imagine ever caring about how fast I went or how fast anyone else went. I could barely ride 400 yards without wheezing and gasping for breath.

Now, after 10 months on a road bike, the first I'd ridden since the 1970s-'80s, and getting a little stronger and faster yet hitting the obstacle course of age and diminishing ability, I can see how tempting it is to try for any edge available.

The past few months I've cracked the top ten on some tough Strava segments. I have one little KOM that's not very impressive because it's on an obscure loop that hardly anyone rides. I know a dozen guys and two women who could beat that easily.

Unexpectedly, I've regained that competitive fire I had as an amateur boxer and cyclist back in the 1970s. Not for racing, winning, or "beating" anyone else on Strava. But to compete against myself and whatever is just over that hill and around that next bend. For now, I'm not content to just ride my bike and enjoy a leisurely cruise. I did that for awhile. I'll probably do that again. But now every time I get on the bike, even on my Univega hybrid, I find myself pushing harder despite myself.

About once a month I join the local fast club's B-group rides just to test myself. I usually get dropped. Sometimes I finish, but always last. Last Thursday I peaked the hill at the turnaround point and was confronted by the faces of a dozen cyclists not much younger than I, looking a little annoyed at having to wait for me.

It pisses me off. Not at them. At myself. I'm pissed off at myself for ruining my genetically compromised respiratory system with smoking. Even though I quit 20 years ago the damage is permanent. I'm pissed off that I push myself to the verge of nausea and passing out, gasping for breath in pain, riding 20 mph, the fastest I can manage... and it's still too slow for that group, even though most of them are in their 50s.

At age 60 I figure I have a very narrow window of 2-5 years at most to maximize my fitness. After that it's all downhill. I'll only get slower and weaker no matter how hard I work at it. But right now I can still improve a bit.

You think I wouldn't try EPO or something else right now, just to enjoy that sensation of being a little fitter, a little stronger and faster again? Just for awhile, before it's too late? Hell, yes, I would. Any PEDs that wouldn't kill me outright, I'd try 'em right now. Experimental drugs to better cope with Hashimoto's? Damn right I would.

What's the diff? It's my body, my risks. I'm not competing with anyone or anything but myself and time.

But add to that the pressure of being younger, at my peak, with a family to support, desperate to escape the limitations of whatever small town I'd left behind... yeah, I can completely understand Lance Armstrong. Because it's no longer a sport. It's a business. And business is ruthless, cutthroat and about maximizing profits for investors. I probably wouldn't done what Lance did. I was never that competitive or ruthless. But I can understand why he chose differently. I don't have to agree or empathize to understand his motivations and choices.

You may recall that LeMond was criticized during his era for not participating in the traditional European ritual of grand tours, crits, classics, etc. Granted, after the gunshot injury and recovery he was permanently impaired and it was only pragmatic to concentrate his efforts on the Tour de France.

But the Europeans like Merckx who criticized LeMond weren't thinking in terms of the sport as an international business. LeMond owed allegiance to his backers, his investors and supporters, the people behind him and his team. If their priority was the TdF, then that's what he'd concentrate on. Because in that era it was unusual for U.S. TV to pay any attention to bicycle racing. And I don't recall ever hearing LeMond or anyone else criticize Merckx for not racing in the major American events, although Hinault sometimes did.

But for Armstrong in the mid-1990s, facing the unstoppable Indurain horse, then losing a testicle and nearly his life... yeah, I can understand the mind-altering effects that would have. I can understand why he chose to pursue that goal at all costs.

I've been in nursing much of my adult life and spent a lot of time around chronically and terminally ill patients, including being a caregiver for three consecutive older family members. It changes their personalities, not often for the better. Despite the romanticized stories we see in the media about heroic terminally ill people living out their final days heroically and dying heroically surrounded by loved ones, guess what? That's very rare. Most chronically and terminally ill folks do not live out their final days heroically surrounded by faithful loved ones. They live and die in fear, anger and rage or apathy, either surrounded by blank faces of exhausted family, or alone and abandoned because they've alienated everyone who cared about them.

Unless you've personally experienced this stuff, you really don't know how you'd react or what you'd do. Ethics become intangible in the face of reality.

obrentharris 

I'm not following the comparisons between Armstrong and the seriously ill, injured, and dying but I do certainly empathize with the above sentence. At the expense of veering way off topic, perhaps I can provide a little solace: I am soon to be 66 years old. I have been a fairly fit cyclist for the last 50 years. In a way I envy that you, having begun cycling again fairly recently, are still on an upward trajectory. I have watched my strength diminish for over 30 years now. Strava only makes the decline more obvious.

The good news is that, with a little resilience, you will find ways to keep enjoying cycling. Endurance does not go away nearly as fast as maximum speed. Longer solo rides that include breakfast or lunch along the way are for me now what a fast 40-miler was 20 years ago, something I look forward to all week and something I always enjoy.

In the last few years I have begun to combine photography with riding. The "Where'd You Ride Today?" thread is a great excuse to bring along the camera and document the places you visit on your rides.

And remember... if you're able to go on a brisk 20-mile ride you're doing better than 90% of the people your age.
Brent

canklecat

Oh, yeah, I consider myself fortunate to be able to ride at all, and to be doing so much better now than when I first resumed cycling. In 2015 this level of fitness was unimaginable to me.

The problem is finding a happy middle ground between satisfaction and complacency when you realize there isn't that much time left to stop and smell the roses. I lost a lot of years of mobility, walking on a cane, unable to lift or carry more than maybe 5 pounds. I had to compromise my pursuit of photography because I couldn't carry the gear anymore. I switched to carrying compact P&S cameras. All my old Nikon film and digital and darkroom gear are about to be sold. I haven't used it in years and don't expect to again.

The connection with Lance Armstrong is that I can imagine him sitting around hospitals and cancer treatment facilities, seeing and smelling death everywhere and thinking "Screw this! If I survive I'm doing whatever it takes to win."

While I'm not a ruthless cutthroat competitor, I can certainly relate to that inner voice saying "Screw this!" in the face of illness, decline and death. I just don't want to be the type to rage at the dying of the light -- which really amounts to raging at the nearest loved ones -- making everyone else miserable. That was the approach of my granddad and mom. That Dylan Thomas poem may seem like epic heroism in print and when read by a gifted orator. But it's not particularly admirable in real life.

For now I just want to enjoy riding my bike for as long as possible. And to take advantage of that rapidly shrinking window of opportunity.

McBTC

20 miles, check-- but... what qualifies as, brisk?

canklecat

Yeah, that's the thing. For me over the past year, 16 mph average is brisk. That's over 20-40 miles with 1,500-2,000 total elevation gain. Lots of undulating roller coaster terrain, not many real climbs.

I've been working hard at it for months but I'm pretty much stuck at that. However I have noticed Strava's power guesstimate doodad shows my average power over those rides has improved a bit, from around 100 Watts to 130 this year. So while my average speed isn't any more impressive, that's also because I'm riding more difficult terrain to improve my climbing, which has always been my weakness. I'll repeat some segments to push myself.

My fastest average over 20-30 group rides has been just a tick over 17 mph, with some flat sections of a few miles at just a tick over 20 mph. For me that's pushing beyond brisk and getting into painful. And I'm still the slowpoke of the group, always bringing up the rear.

I have a few top tens on some local Strava segments, faster than some riders who I know are much stronger than I am. But that's because I cherry pick. I choose days with a tailwind, or at least neutral wind, on days when I feel strong and the lungs are clear. I loaf en route to the segments, about 14 mph, then sprint until my eyes bleed on those segments.

So it's misleading. I'm not faster or stronger than other folks. I just push harder on those segments, where they ride steadily over longer distances. And I'm reckless on downhills because I enjoy the speed, while I'm a slug on climbs. That's why I always get gapped on club rides. They coast downhills, which I find frustrating. I can't get a lead on the group, knowing they'll catch me on the next climb. Then I get dropped again.

Pretty much the same as when I rode crits decades ago. I always loafed at the back of the pack and wheelsucked. I crashed out on my first or second crit, got painful road rash and nearly got written up for disciplinary action because I was in the Navy and hadn't gotten permission to race. So after that I kept riding crits and time trials, but always very conservatively and safely at the back. I was just happy to finish intact and not dead last.

SamSpade1941 

Translation : I am still upset that he outplayed everyone involved in a sport that is well known for being dirty going back decades.

You know I will probably catch heat for saying this but when I could have given two flips about the sport of cycling Lance got me interested in professional cycling enough to watch.

To hate Lance Armstrong you have to hate everyone else that doped all the way back to the days when they drank beers while racing.

Hate the game not the player....

As far as I am concerned Lance earned all 7 of those titles considering he was racing in a sport well known for shenanigans where everyone was doping. He just did it better than the other guys .