MKahrl

At the 2005 industry Interbike show the resurrected Golden Toidie award was given by the SOPWAMTOS (Society Of People Who Actually Make Their Own Sh*t) to Seven for the "Bike Company Most Obsessed With Rich White Men" category.

mingsta

Similar experience here. I was in the market for a new bike last summer, never thought I could afford a Seven. I went to CycleFit (Serotta's UK distributors) for a bike fitting, my idea was to get the frame specs for my "ideal" frame, which I could then compare to various off the peg bikes.

To those of you who think that Serotta's 3hr fitting is just hype, I'd wonder if you'd still think the same after having one of those fitting sessions. These guys measured EVERYTHING, not just the usual stuff, they also measured hip and hamstring flexibility, feet joints etc. More importantly, they got me on a bike with their initial measurements dialled in then watched me ride with some weird lazer thing aimed at my knees. More fettling, cleat adjustment, LeWedge shims etc, then another round of cycling with lazers...etc. I'm probably not doing the science much justice, but I can't imagine a more thorough bike fit.

They gave me the spec's and tried to talk me round to a Serotta. Out of the question given my budget. After a bit of research I soon discovered that a Seven Alaris was just within my budget...it was no dearer than an off the peg frame from litespeed/merlin and being a non-weenie, I could live with the extra 200g of straight guage Ti if it meant that I could go custom.

I was fitted up for the Seven at Sigma Sport, who are a very well respected roadie shop near to mine. I was initially rather sceptical because the fit session just involved a tape measure and questionaire, unlike Serotta, who actually put me on a fit cycle. However, I knew I had the Serotta spec's to compare to and could call them out if anything whacky turned up. A couple of weeks later I received the frame specs and CAD drawings from Seven...the frame spec was IDENTICAL to within a couple of millimetres of the Serotta spec, the only difference being that Serotta recommended a 5.5 cm saddle to bar drop, whilst Seven recommended 3 cm - nothing that couldn't be sorted with either spacers or different angled stems.

What this tells me is that both Serotta and Seven have their stats pretty dialled. They've both spent a good number of years refining their fit processes and it was very reasuring to see a nearly identical spec coming from 2 seperate bike fittings.

As mentioned by others, bike fitting isn't a black art and most people could equally find their perfect frame/fit by doing plenty of experimentation and trying a number of bikes. But for me, I was 28 at the time with probably my best 5 years of riding ahead of me. I'd been mountain biking for a number of years but had been riding road on a singlespeed track bike for just 12 months. I didn't want to spend the next few years owning several different frames, stems and bars, making mistakes along the way before finding my perfect ride. I wanted to get the best fitting bike from day one and going with Seven/Serotta's recommendations allowed me to do this. I won't lose any sleep at night wondering if I picked the right size because I'm in between sizes on a Compact Giant/Spesh frameset, because my bike was built for me. For a frame that I will still be riding in 10 years time, thats worth a couple of hundred bucks extra fo' sure!

Thylacine

Seven is like taking the old Merlin and Fat City Cycles, combining them....and then just agreeing with Bruce Gordon.

lovemyswift

My bike fits were 15 min fits. I went through 2 mtn bikes and 3 road bikes in 10 years.

I thought my beautiful Aegis was the best fitting bike I ever had except I kept having back and shoulder problems. Nothing new, I've always had back and shoulder problems. TT was correct length but with the 15 min fit they cut the steerer tube to short (the fitter missed my short arms). It cost me close to $500 to replace the fork so the handlebars could be raised. Because the original fork was made by Aegis and they no longer make them I am now having handling problems with the bike.

So last week I ordered a custom Serotta Ottrott, expensive yes, but not as expensive as all those bikes and refits I spent my money on over the years.

Serpico

to the original poster:

I would email Seven and see if they will give you access to their forum, I would also checkout possibly the Serotta and Moots forums

this thread has gone wildly off-topic, much of the replies you've gotten have to do with value judgements (ie "Is a handbuilt frame worth the expense?") which it seems you've already decided on(??)

good luck, whatever you choose

lala

Exactly!

patentcad

This notion that spending $6K on a road bike from Serotta or Seven gets you a better fit is brilliant marketing on the part of those bike makers. Because it really boils down to the LBS that fits you - and how much you know about bike fit yourself. I've been doing this for 20+ years. I know what fits me. Which is a big advantage. But I learned that from researching the bike fit topic in books and magazines - and by talking to lots of knowlegable bike industry pros. Which you can also do.

So if none of your older bikes fit you - there's really no total assurance that a $6K Serotta will resolve that for you. Is it more LIKELY that a Serotta or Seven dealer will be more thorough and successful at ascertaining the right size for you? Of course. Is it something I'd bet $6K on? Nope. You'd better have a handle on the bike fit thing before somebody sells you a $6K Ottrott that doesn't fit so great, eh? I never spend over $4K for a racing bike - and never had one custom built - and they always fit very nicely. And I have a short torso/long legs for my size. But all that means is that I need to know what stock sizes work for me. Stock 56cm Cannodale Six13 - yes. The stock Giant TCR sizes available - no.

So take a deep breath and get over this preposterous notion that $6000 Ti bikes from high end custom builders like Serotta = Guaranteed Perfect Fit. You'll get a fantastic bicycle that will last you a lifetime - and with any luck it may fit you pretty good too : ).

fmw

I think 53-11 is 100% correct. Marketing is a powerful seller and these companies have done some powerful marketing which doesn't work on me but apparently works on a lot of cyclists. Let's look at these comments.

Serotta is "better" because he knows two people who were unhappy with Seven and happy with Serotta. For all we know these two, wanting to enjoy the whole custom fitted experience, put so much of their own preference into the design that they ended up with a lousy product. Next time, they kept their mouth shut and got a decent bike. I don't know that this is the case. My point is that knowing "two people who...." isn't very compelling logic. It isn't a rational way to determine that brand A is better than brand B.

Serotta is "better" because the fitting takes a long time. For me exactly the opposite would be true. Imagine spending 3 hours fitting a bike. I would have some serious reservations about the competence of the fitter if he took that long. Oh, sorry, I forgot. We're looking at extending the "custom fitted" experience aren't we? This logic isn't very compelling either. I've done a little bike fitting myself and - sssshhhh - it's easier than rocket science. I've never been able to learn rocket science.

I'm always interested to read the negative things some people say about custom fitted bikes. The reason is that most people never knock the products they bought because they think it makes them look bad for having bought something that turned out to be unsatisfactory. I've always thought that the worst place to get a product review is from the product owner who spent his or her hard earned money on the product. There is too much bias. So the people who rail against their customs are seriously unhappy. I read way way more negative comments per capita about custom bikes than factory bikes. Go figure. The most likely reason is that the void between experience and expectation is pretty wide.

I view custom bikes as 50% marketing and 50% bike. I honestly believe that most people will get a better bike and maybe even a better fit with a factory bike. No, I haven't owned a custom frame and I won't so don't even suggest it. Like 53-11, I don't think these folks make bad frames. I just think they make frames that are no better than the frames coming out of the Taiwanese factories and aren't worth anywhere near their asking price. The overhead involved in producing the product isn't the issue. The product itself is the issue.

What I offer here is obviously opinion and not scientifically tested fact. I'm just a cranky old dude who's been around the block far too many times and I have a jaundiced outlook on marketing. Maybe it was the years I spent doing marketing myself. Take my opinion with as many grains of salt as you wish. Happy riding.

lovemyswift

You're lucky, you're not 5"1", with short arms and short femur. A stock bike will fit with about 4cm of spacers, a zero degree seatpost and my saddle forward as far as it will go. Do you know of any stock frames that will fit me without spacers, etc?

Do you look at femur length and arm length when fitting bikes? The LBS that I bought my bike from had 20 years experience in fitting but they didn't take those factors into consideration when fitting me.

Besides, I already have that amount in the Aegis, and I couldn't find any other high end stock frame in my size. I bought the Aegis because I was tired of being beaten to death by aluminum, which is the material of choice for small frames by bike companies.

Fortunately, the fit on my Aegis is so good now that I can say to the fitter, duplicate it.

Kathi

VeloLisa

I decided to get my custom Independent Fabrication Crown Jewel not because I especially needed a custom frame. I'm sure I could have gone down to my LBS and bought a 49-50cm Trek that would have fit me just fine. I got the IF because I wanted a bike as unique as I am. I wanted a sweet, smooth-riding but responsive lightweight steel frame that was made to fit my unique measurements, even if those measurements aren't really all that unique. I wanted to choose the paint colors and the decal style and colors. I wanted my name painted on it. I wanted to choose all the components. I invested a lot of myself into this the bike; the whole process took a lot of thought, time and research. I had to think very seriously about exactly what I wanted in a bike and to convey that to the frame builder. I looked at MANY custom frame builders. I chose IF based on their reputation and because I really like their company ethos. And I must say that I made the right choice. They took my idea of my dream bike and made it a reality. Yeah, I could have gone down to the LBS and plunked down my 2K or so for that Trek. The whole process would have taken me maybe an hour, two at the most, versus the 3 months it took for me to get my IF. But, that Trek would not have had the soul that my IF has; it wouldn't be so very uniquely mine. And that, to me, is worth the extra grand I spent.

lovemyswift

Same with me Indy Girl. Since my refit on my Aegis, I've put close to 8,000 miles on it. I've ridden on a variety of terrain, from the Applacian Mtn Range to the Rockies + 4 week long tours. I know exactly what I like and don't like about the bike, fit and handling. It took me 2 years to come to this decision.

With custom I can chose components and wheelsets that are appropriate for my small size and weight.

Poor bike fit has forced me to learn about what works for me. I have learned more about bike fit from the Serotta fitters that I've worked with than any of the people who fit my bikes when they were purchased.

I've ridden for 25 years and not had a bike that fit without a lot of adjustments. It's time for me to have a perfectly fitting bike.

53-11_alltheway

Yeah the bike has to fit right, but this idea that some custom fit process is going to get you all this "ultra precision" is a joke.

I bet if you had 10 different fitters measure you up at 10 different places you'd get 10 different frames or 10 different ideas of frames you should be riding That's my point. The 1mm stuff is marketing.

lovemyswift

We'll see.

I've worked with 3 different fitters and their findings, even though independent, are consistent with each other.

And it was because I paid for the refit on my Aegis that I was finally comfortable and happy on my bike.

Kathi

patentcad

I'll certainly grant you that if you have highly unusual body dimensions, a custom fit may be the way to go. I have somewhat unusual body geometry and I've been able to make stock sizes work. Let's put it this way: if I can get a stock bike to fit, 90%+ of bike buyers can. But that doesn't cover everybody.

Just take the whole 'magical frame fitting formula' thing with a grain of salt. Their real trump card in this process is the ability to craft a custom frame dimensions that fit your personal physique precisely. That's the key here. And of course before you make a $3000+ frame that you can't sell to anybody else, you'd better be pretty damn sure it's the right size : ).

I'm not knocking the Serotta/Seven advantage. Because in one sense it's very real. But do 90% of us really need that? Can most of us get a bike that fits just as good from a Cannondale or Trek dealer's stock? You bet. But it won't have that Serotta/Seven/IF bling or that magical Ti ride. So in that sense you DO get what you pay for. I've experienced both sides of this between my Ibis Ti and my '06 Cannondale Six13. Both great bikes.

But frankly the Cannondale is an efficient race bike. The Ibis SINGS to me when I ride it bike fans. That's why Ti is so special. Which would I pick if I had to own only one? VERY tough choice. Both great bikes. But different, very different.

In the end, unless you ride competitively all the time, and even if you do, it's pretty hard to beat Ti for your 'dream' bike. Ti/carbon mix bikes must be amazing.

Chef23

I have read all of this with interest. I have never ridden a custom fit bike but I have paid for a fitting in the past. A custom fit bike would be cool and when my kids are older I might get one.

All that said if the custom fit bike makes you want to go out and ride more and you can afford it then you should get one regardless of what other people say about it.

Ozrider

First, Seven is not strictly a custom frame maker. They make stock bikes also. I think a more correct way to think of them would be as a boutique bike maker.

Second, speaking as an LBS employee, they are darn fine bikes - pricey, but top notch. If you are looking for an equivalent in the auto world, think Porsche or Ferrari.

Other companies, such as Trek and Giant make bikes that are the same quality as Seven.

Thylacine

The best reason to get a custom bike is so that you have a unique bike for a unique individual - you. It fill fit better simply because you have no limitations on dimentions. It will handle better because you can skew all those dimensions, too. It will look better because it's yours.

The fit thing is important, but if you think a bike company or LBS is the be-all-and-end-all of fitting, you're horribly wrong. Use this analogy - If you had a medical problem, would you prefer a doctor or someone who has done a first-aid course?

That's what most of these fittings are. They're some guy who's gone through the Serotta 'course' or some guy who knows how to opperate a speadsheet and has done a few fittings before.

If you want the ultimate in fit, you need to consult a sports physiologist who specialises in cycling.

The ultimate experience is the combination of the custom bike builder, a sports physiologist, and you. The end product craps all over some LBS plugging your details into a spreadsheet and selling you a brand that they're a dealer for.

telenick

Well said.

Murrays

Here in Madison, we have one of the top Seven distributors in the world. I could name a dozen friends that have Sevens and I’ve probably have seen a couple dozen more on our group rides. I also know several people who have purchased Serottas from the same dealer. I’m actually turned off by the number of Sevens around here (perhaps I’ll get it without decals and put “MURRAY” on it )

Nobody has told me they are disappointed with their Seven purchase. One guy even said it was the single best purchase he’s ever made!

FWIW, this particular dealer was recommended for fitting when we traveled to the Waterford factory for my wife’s bike. Richard Schwinn told us that this guy knew more about fitting than they did!

While I don’t think I need custom geometry, I like the idea of customizing the tubes to my riding preferences. I want something comfortable for my 2-4 hour group rides, centuries as well as something that climbs well since I’m not getting any younger I’m always spinning and weigh less than 140 lbs. My bike will be different than a more muscular masher with the same dimensions as me.

As for cost, I’ve been riding for over 25 years/55,000 miles and I’ve never spent more than a grand on a bike. Like others, I want a bike to ride for the next 25 years. The way I look at it, lots of people with less money than me spend more on boats, golf, snowmobiles, etc. and won’t get the hours of enjoyment I will get out of a Seven/Serotta. If it helps me enjoy my riding a bit more, it’s worth every penny.

Anyway, next spring, I should be on a new ride.

-murray

53-11_alltheway

What Thylacine was saying about skewing the dimensions for a particular purpose I agree with. I'm saying this because one day I want to experiment around with different frames (short seat-tube, long top tube, steep seat angle, short chainstay, slack headtube angle, etc)

The irony here is that most people can be well served by the huge diversity (their is an enormous swing in geometries) in factory frames.....Its just they get hung up on brands. Such is the power of marketing and branding, If you can't have the "in" frame because its particular geometry doesn't suit you well you have to go custom right?

Now if you want your own personalized bike for the hell of it (even if it is a exact duplicate of Trek geometry) then thats another thing.

53-11_alltheway

A lot of common sense here.

53-11_alltheway

Yeah and all the laser gimmicktry just adds to illusion of this "precise fit" too. Unless they have special machines that measure wind resistance relative to power output (lol) I think most people are better off with an experienced LBS guy doing a trial and error fit based on his background knowledge of frame dimensions.

I've talked to what sounded like some really good LBS people and other times some that just didn't give a damn. In reality all these fit systems do is take some of the variability out, but that still doesn't mean you won't get stuck with a lemon.

Besides I like to ride the bike I'm getting before I pay for it

Vinokurtov

There was a recent review by (I believe) Marcel Wurst in one of the high end glossys where he rode two Sevens, same model but built to different specs. The difference between the two bikes were huge in the riding.

That, and the likelihood of an exact fit, is why you'd buy a custom bike like Seven. You get exactly what you want.

And I'm reasonably certain that if most people won a raffle and had a choice between a custom built Seven (or Serotta, or whatever), and an off the shelf model of similar value, they'd pick the custom frame.

53-11_alltheway

For it to be a "true" exact fit the rider would have to be extremely experienced plus have in depth knowledge of previous frames, their geometries and their exact shortcomings. Then maybe something could be done.

LOL....Serotta or Seven is not going to be able to give an exact fit to some new guy who never rode a bike before. Maybe a good fit, yes, but I seriously doubt it would be any better than what could already be accomplished on a stock frame. The only exception would be someone with unusual dimensions.

I'd be willing to bet out of 20 guys looking for a custom frame only 1 of those (5%) will actually gain an improvement geometry wise going custom.

LOL @ this "exact fit" nonsense.

mingsta

The laser thingie is to help them measure your knee movement as they adjust cleat position, add/remove LeWedges.

Which is exactly what the Serotta guys are...experienced LBS guys using knowledge and some trial and error to get a good fit. They just have access to better resources (Serotta size cycle, video, lewedges, laser thingies etc) than some LBS's and because they spend 3 hours doing a fitting they have the time to do MORE trial and error with respect to cleat adjustment, bars etc etc. Its not like its the ultimate bike fit or anything, but I think this increases your chances of getting a good fit.

I find you stance rather strange. You are of course entitled to your own opinion but why be so dismissive of custom frames/custom fittings etc when it seems that you have not had any real experience of either?