53-11_alltheway

I think its marketing pure and simple.

Most people do not need a custom frame to get a "best fit" scenario. In fact, I bet most of the time the custom fitting is wrong (or at least no better than what they could have already got)

roadwarrior

Your first statement would be correct. In fact, when people come in for a fitting, probably half of the time they end up buying a stock frame and bike.

Your second statement is totally incorrect. But that's why you said, "I bet", because you do not do this, have not been trained in it, and really do not know.

FWIW, I raced on custom bikes when I did race, both here in the US and in Europe. It was a long process. Unless you are experienced in the process, been through the process, undestand the process, been trained in the process...you are simply expressing an opinion, which you are entitled to, but some of what you say is totally incorrect.

BTW..I ride a stock bike. An extremely nice one, and very expensive and totally fitted, but my frame is stock.

mingsta

That last bit is really quite laughable. Petty even. But what would they know, you're the fitting expert

H1449-6

I think that you simply like to make silly, argumentative statements to get a reaction.

patentcad

The bottom line with cycling and bike fit issues is that they're complicated and vary enormously from weenie to weenie - and in the end it takes EXPERIENCE. It's not easy and not always simple. I have the experience. I've had bikes that didn't fit me. Now I know what works for me. At least I THINK I do. Hey what do I know? I've had chronic back pain for years related to cycling and for all I know it's my bike position. But that does that mean my bike fit is wrong? Probably not.

Here's a news flash for all you weenies: you can have PERFECT BIKE FIT and develop repetitive stress injuries on a bicycle. Your back is in constant extreme flexion for zillions of hours and your neck is in extreme extension. That's a long term recipie for problems, and doctors see it often. I've had two back surgeries probably somewhat related to all my cycling. But that being said I'm still riding 1000 miles per month. And none of the doctors/chiropractors/health pros I've seen (we're moving in on the two dozen mark over 6 years) have a CLUE about why my low back hurts. Ironically the cycling does help. In the end it's the activity I engage in that helps the most. And I'll probably never figure any of this out.

But make no mistake, this 'we have the magic bike fit formula' is 50% bull****. But that means it's half true. And Seven/Serotta/IF etc. make BEAUTIFUL bikes that you'll probably be glad you bought.

Good grief, just shut up and ride already. All of you. I'm outta here.

53-11_alltheway

Well it is a joke and you know I'm right. Like I said if I went to 10 different places I bet I'd get 10 different answers on what perfect fit is.

Haha....I bet all 10 would be wrong too as far as "exact" goes.

Now here is what you are failing to understand---> you can't be precise about something that is inherently imprecise.

I see Bike fitting as something only useful for someone absolutely clueless and then only as a starting point.

This idea that some guy can dial in the perfect fit for you is just very naive.

fmw

I agree with 53-11 again. To me it is the height of arrogance for someone to suppose they can "fit" me. Basically one has to fit one's self because only the rider knows what works best and feels best. I grant you that it is helpful to have someone experienced in fitting to speed the process and to suggest changes. But the fitter doesn't have to ride the bike, the rider does. How the bike feels and responds to the rider is what matters and it is the rider alone who can judge this. For a novice to go to a fitter sounds like a recipe for disaster to me because a novice doesn't even know what works best. A novice should just get the right frame size (trivial) and go at it.

Fitting is a process and not an event. The idea of building an expensive frame on the basis of what someone else thinks is best for me sounds ludicrous to me. Having the best frame size to make fitting easiest is important because it will speed and ease the process and prevent having dimensions on the final fit that cause poor bike handling. I would be astounded if a custom bike owner tweaked nothing at all after the bike was built. I would also say that tweaking from the starting point of a factory bike would produce about the same fit.

All of my road bikes fit me the same. They all have different geometries and slightly different handling characteristics. They even have different frame sizes. But I can move from one to the other without noticing a change in the fit. The fit depends on the process more than the frame itself, in my opinion.

No, I have never owned a custom built frame and, obviously, I never will because I don't believe in it. Personally, I don't even consider the frame a terribly important part of the bike compared to what is mounted on the frame, assuming a competently designed and built frame. In other words, I think a bad frame can make a bad bike. I don't think one good frame makes a better bike than another good frame. 53-11, I guess you and I are a small minority.

roadwarrior

Huh?

baron182

I have owned a Seven Alaris for the past 2 years. The shop i worked with was excellent and Seven could not be a better company to deal with. Once you've filled out the inntial fit forms with your shop, Seven contacts you and you do a phone interview for about 30 minutes. The discussion is on riding style, types of rides ie club race centuries etc, performance aspects, area you ride in. They make suggestions and send you a build confirmation. It took them about 4 weeks to build my frame. The bike I have is spot on. I ride on average 150 miles a week in a club. I live in a fairly hilly area an the northeast and I wanted a bike with good handling and climbing performance. They spec out lateral and vertical frame compliance based on your weight. On climbs my bike offers next to no flex but on downhills it is excellent in sucking up rough rodes. The service from Seven is superb any problems just call. My bike is built up full ultegra tripple crank in front. I have ridden Carbon frames and they have a dead feel to me. The titanium is lively and dampens road vibration. Good luck with your decision.

edzo

some of the hottest female racers I ever seen were racing Sevens, that's all I need to know

so buy one

Murrays

FWIW, we’re talking about two different things here: A professional fitting and a custom frame. Regardless of budget, I would advise any serious cyclist to get a professional fitting. OTOH, a custom frame may not offer a huge benefit. As with anything, there are diminishing returns.

I do agree that a knowledgeable, experienced rider can take the time to find a good fit. In fact, the body will adjust to a frame size that’s “good enough”, though the rider might be riding below peak performance.

As an example, my wife was put on a too large frame by a Trek dealer that nearly caused her to pass out from knee pain on a week long tour. After purchasing a “custom” Waterford, the problem never reoccurred. Was the custom frame “worth it”? Absolutely!

Also, you seem to be ignoring the fact that "custom" means more than geometry, it means ride characteristics due to custom tube thicknesses. Two people could be fit to the same geometry, yet have vastly different body types and riding styles.

Personally, I don’t have time to go out and ride 20 bikes on 30 mile test rides after tweaking the stem, handlebars & saddle to my liking. Even if I did, the full bike wouldn’t be significantly cheaper than a Seven/Serotta with some likelihood that it doesn’t fit right.

In the end, I find it interesting when people criticize others for a high end purchase. A bit of envy, perhaps?

-murray

Murrays

What would you lose from a professional fitting?? Heck, the $100 fee is small change compared to any kind of back pain IMHO.

I don’t believe anyone here said anything about a “magic bike fit formula”. A properly fit bike can make a huge difference, but there is nothing “magic” about it, it just takes experience and knowledge.

-murray

Murrays

I wanted to highlight some of this for the naysayers that believe "custom" is all about geometry.

-murray

patentcad

>>What would you lose from a professional fitting?? Heck, the $100 fee is small change compared to any kind of back pain IMHO.<<

The lack of understanding regarding bike fit and back pain displayed in this statement is hard to quantify in human terms. Let's put it this way: my back issues have defied real diganosis and treatment by NY area health pros (and we're talking some of the best doctors on the planet around here) for 6 years. Somehow I don't see the Serotta bike fit weenie patrol resolving this. I'd bore you with the details of my back odyssey but the post would be 9 pages long. You don't want to know. I don't even want to know.

In the end no matter what racing bike you're on your back is in extreme flexion. So you can take all that bike fit hooey and wipe your ass with it. If your back is going south, it's going south. BIG time.

Murrays

Of course you're right, you know what you've been through and all while I don't. OTOH, if I was having a serious problem on my bike, I would consult an expert in the field of bike fitting. Perhaps the experts you've consulted understand cycling, I don't know, but I don't see any harm in consulting a "Serotta bike fit weenie patrol".

What could it hurt?

-murray

patentcad

It could hurt my back. ANYTHING can hurt my back Murray. Again, you don't want to know.

Besides, I have invested $8K in bike schwag since October. I'm DONE. F my stupid back. It actually feels pretty damn good today after 50 spirited miles on my Ibis Ti : ). I can't talk about my back anymore. Seriously. It is what it is.

mingsta

Yer wallet?

kipjac

Learn, I've had a Seven Axiom since 1998 and it's been a wonderful bike. I had a very good experience with Seven's custom fit program and they sent out a multi-page questionnaire that included dozens of parameters to record and consider such as body geometry, current bike geometry, riding style, age, presence or absence of pain, and dimensions of componentry on the current bike to name but a few.

I was in constant email and telephone contact with Rob Vandermark and Matt O'Keefe whenever they or I had questions about the building process.

The first day I rode the new Seven, I was about 20 miles into the ride when I realized I was without back pain! It was a revelation, really; I had grown so accustomed to hurting by this mile point on my old bike that I took it for granted, but Seven's staff helped me come to the realization that I was on a frame that was too big for me and I was too stretched out in the cockpit.

Since then, I've put thousands of miles on the Axiom and they've all been without any problems. I lovingly inspect the frame about every 200 miles or so and I still marvel at the quality of the welds and workmanship. The chainstays and seatstays are ever-so-sexy with their subtle s-bends, and I love the well polished sheen of the titanium. The frame is stiff but compliant, not fatiguing at all.

If you can afford to have a custom bike built for you, then go for it. You won't regret it.

Serpico

wow, these threads are painful to read

anyways--buy what you want. these threads descend quickly into "well blah blah blah you shouldn't spend $xyz on a bike blah blah blah I don't own one but I'd like to run my mouth for awhile blah blah blah"

I agree with what I said 7 months ago--on the first page of this thread: talk to a dealer, talk to some owners and talk to the company/manufacturer you're considering, and then do the same for the other companies/manufacturers you're considering

there's plenty of nice bikes out there... let people ride what they want / spend what they want / buy what they want

good luck

bonzo_351m

+1

rapidcarbon

+1

Test rode once, and not impressed.

Blue Jays

Hi All-

If we can return this discussion to SEVEN bicycles in particular...what are forumite feelings towards a titanium/carbon fiber mix like an Elium SG or Elium Race as compared with a pure titanium model like an Axiom SG or Axiom Race? Is the stiff yet dampened qualities of the mixed construction models helpful? Is an all-titanium bike comparatively stronger? What is the correct choice if competitive training and club rides is the yardstick?

I'm in the midst of comparing SEVEN, I.F., and MOOTS...

~ Blue Jays ~

patentcad

That 'custom fit' debate aside, I've never spoken to a Seven owner who wasn't in love with their bike. And they do appear to be as nice as any high end bike on the planet. Are they BETTER than Serotta or some othe high end bicycles? All of these bikes seem to be pretty amazing.

So go BUY one already.

onkey

pcad, u r really getting juiced up about this aren't you? snow in the forecast for today. better get out and spine around before it starts!

later

Markedoc

Most Seven riders I have know have made the leap from an ill-fitting $1,000 entry level bike to a $5,000 (or more) custom Seven, so I can see why they'd be impressed - better fit and a nicer ride. Most of them rely heavily on the LBS advice vs. developing their own expertise about bikes. In my experience, they tend to be riders that are more involved in group rides and clubs, and buy the Seven because their friend did.

Just some random observations, sure to piss someone off. Oh - the new Sport Illustrated swimsuit issue is here - got to go.