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1958 Schwinn Paramount P-12

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1958 Schwinn Paramount P-12

Old 06-09-18, 05:56 PM
  #26  
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Here are some more crappy pics for now.







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Old 06-09-18, 06:03 PM
  #27  
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Old 06-09-18, 06:10 PM
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So locknuts verify hubs are period correct, love the set screw cable end, couple of pics are later bar options, last pic is seatpost, stem knuckle is upturned for more upright position. The PO said the bike had been setup with rando bars and turkey levers for the PO before him to be more upright but he had the bars below the stem, go figure, fugly and all it is really growing on me.
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Old 06-09-18, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by merziac View Post
So locknuts verify hubs are period correct, love the set screw cable end, couple of pics are later bar options, last pic is seatpost, stem knuckle is upturned for more upright position. The PO said the bike had been setup with rando bars and turkey levers for the PO before him to be more upright but he had the bars below the stem, go figure, fugly and all it is really growing on me.
Bars below the stem is the way I've seen those set up, but that's probably because they are usually on track bikes. I remember a really tall guy had a bike with one of those in my hometown. Can't recall which way it went.

Please be careful with your minimum insertions. It would be a huge shame to crack the seat lug or bulge the steer tube at this point. I realize you are just setting things to see what they look like at this point. I've seen enough frames ruined by this to be a bit paranoid, so sorry in advance if i'm overstating the obvious. For that bike, it would be worth getting a custom stem made if you need more extension.
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Old 06-09-18, 11:27 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine View Post
Bars below the stem is the way I've seen those set up, but that's probably because they are usually on track bikes. I remember a really tall guy had a bike with one of those in my hometown. Can't recall which way it went.

Please be careful with your minimum insertions. It would be a huge shame to crack the seat lug or bulge the steer tube at this point. I realize you are just setting things to see what they look like at this point. I've seen enough frames ruined by this to be a bit paranoid, so sorry in advance if i'm overstating the obvious. For that bike, it would be worth getting a custom stem made if you need more extension.
No worries, tx for the reminder. I am pretty diligent about all of this by nature and pride myself on avoiding harm and improving whatever I put my hands and tools on.

Saved a lot of mangled parts including many BB's that were uncooperative and suffered dearly for it, HS's, hubs and pedals as well. Many mechanics don't abide by it but I firmly believe we should do no harm, especially in a case like this.

I have been a mechanic/technician all my life, bikes, cars professionally for 20 yrs, motorcycles, drag racing and plenty else, so I have a pretty good handle on what I am doing, especially when things get sketchy as that's when it matters most that you take the time to figure out a good solution. There are plenty of butchers out there that don't know or care how to get the job done without causing more damage and in cases like this is "Paramount"
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Old 06-10-18, 02:25 AM
  #31  
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Anyway, here's a link.
https://vintageccm.com/sites/default/files/mike_barrys_1925_ccm_flyer_seat_tube_angle.jpg
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Old 06-10-18, 02:41 AM
  #32  
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Old 06-10-18, 06:02 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by merziac View Post
Yes, originally and traditionally a track stem going way back, this basic design goes back to the beginning of Paramounts in the 30's for Schwinn.

Most of the other major manufacturers had something similar probably well before them.

It is often referred to as a Major Taylor stem. We are fairly certain this one is original to this bike.

Richard Schwinn says many people used them on road bikes as well.
Ambrosio made a variation, which adjusts from the rear instead of the front. It was standard equipment on a lot of ca. 1960 Capo road bicycles, including the top-of-the-line Siegers.
.
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Old 06-10-18, 07:12 AM
  #34  
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What a neat bike! I can't help but notice that it has randonneur-style bars on it. I've got those on my Carlton Continental that was originally sold in Beverly Hills around 1950, and have seen them on another Carlton sold in that shop in 1958.

Was there some kind of popularity surrounding rando bars in 1950s America? They seem to be out of place on all of these old road bikes...

-Gregory
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Old 06-10-18, 11:10 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Kilroy1988 View Post
What a neat bike! I can't help but notice that it has randonneur-style bars on it. I've got those on my Carlton Continental that was originally sold in Beverly Hills around 1950, and have seen them on another Carlton sold in that shop in 1958.

Was there some kind of popularity surrounding rando bars in 1950s America? They seem to be out of place on all of these old road bikes...

-Gregory
Tx!

Those rando bars were added by one of the po's along with the Schwinn approved brake and "safety" turkey levers for a more upright riding position, they have been swapped out for some more acceptable bars and the original levers.
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Old 06-10-18, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by cb400bill View Post
Tx!
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Old 06-10-18, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by merziac View Post
Tx!

Those rando bars were added by one of the po's along with the Schwinn approved brake and "safety" turkey levers for a more upright riding position, they have been swapped out for some more acceptable bars and the original levers.
Well, I'm sure they weren't original spec, but they could have been added a while back. Are they branded? Is there a way to ell their age? They weren't specced for the Carltons I've seen, either, but were obviously put on the bikes very early in their careers. I'm wondering if there is anything to suggest a fad (e.g. perhaps someone's memory of such).

-Gregory
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Old 06-10-18, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Kilroy1988 View Post
Well, I'm sure they weren't original spec, but they could have been added a while back. Are they branded? Is there a way to ell their age? They weren't specced for the Carltons I've seen, either, but were obviously put on the bikes very early in their careers. I'm wondering if there is anything to suggest a fad (e.g. perhaps someone's memory of such).

-Gregory
No branding on the bars, levers are Schwinn approved Dia Compe's like they used in the70's for years.
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Old 06-11-18, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by John E View Post
Ambrosio made a variation, which adjusts from the rear instead of the front. It was standard equipment on a lot of ca. 1960 Capo road bicycles, including the top-of-the-line Siegers.
.
Yep, many variations, most companies had one, Cinelli, 3ttt, many others. Seems like they were quite popular and a lot of different designs. There are several pics showing Major Taylor riding with the bars above the stem as well.
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Old 06-11-18, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Deal4Fuji View Post
ok make me do the work pretty cool - https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...-question.html

...still never got an answer to the "why" - a little more digging found this answer from the Schwinn Bike Forum. See 5th reply from GYSOT
https://www.schwinnbikeforum.com/ind...?topic=34623.0

Originally Posted by merziac View Post

As an aside, the tubing, airframe connection may be relevant here, as usual just spitballin.

I personally look at the “Hat In The Ring” logo as nothing more than a bit of cocky bravado, from the biggest American bike company’s premiere racing machine.
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Old 06-11-18, 02:34 PM
  #41  
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So is the paper box label, your first photo, supposed to belong to this bike? I ask because the 26x9 gear (inch pitch, so the equivalent of 52x18) and lack of brakes sounds like track bike specifications.

Kopps is still open, claims to be the oldest bike shop in the country.
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Old 06-11-18, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by rhm View Post
So is the paper box label, your first photo, supposed to belong to this bike? I ask because the 26x9 gear (inch pitch, so the equivalent of 52x18) and lack of brakes sounds like track bike specifications.
The model is listed as a P12 which was the road racing version. Not sure why it listed no brakes.
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Old 06-11-18, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Kactus View Post
The model is listed as a P12 which was the road racing version. Not sure why it listed no brakes.
Yes, I understand that; the description is sketchy and it might just be an oversight that the brakes were not mentioned.

But 26x9 is very specific and seems to be a track specification. That's why I ask.
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Old 06-11-18, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Kilroy1988 View Post
What a neat bike! I can't help but notice that it has randonneur-style bars on it. I've got those on my Carlton Continental that was originally sold in Beverly Hills around 1950, and have seen them on another Carlton sold in that shop in 1958.

Was there some kind of popularity surrounding rando bars in 1950s America? They seem to be out of place on all of these old road bikes...

-Gregory
Good question. I have them on a 58 Vic Edwards with AVA stem.

Always interesting searching quality old pics of the era and pro racers. When zooming in one may spot a few with rando bars, various shifters, etc..

-----
OP bike is terrific!
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Old 06-11-18, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by The Golden Boy View Post



I personally look at the “Hat In The Ring” logo as nothing more than a bit of cocky bravado, from the biggest American bike company’s premiere racing machine.
I've always liked this decal of character. In regards to Schwinn, my thoughts it represented track racing and up for any challenger. To 'toss ones hat into the boxing ring' meant to challenge.

Just a hunch....
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Old 06-11-18, 04:33 PM
  #46  
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Well sure, originally it came from boxing, but really it came from Eddie Rickenbacker's Spad. Here is a gratuitous picture.


Last edited by Salamandrine; 06-11-18 at 07:07 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 06-11-18, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine View Post
Well sure, originally it came from boxing, but really it came from Eddie Rickebacker's Spad. Here is a gratuitous picture.

I always thought it was meant as a tribute to Rickenbacker.
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Old 06-11-18, 06:38 PM
  #48  
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Best accessory ever. What a lovely bike. Angles look pretty racy to boot.
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Old 06-11-18, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by rhm View Post
So is the paper box label, your first photo, supposed to belong to this bike? I ask because the 26x9 gear (inch pitch, so the equivalent of 52x18) and lack of brakes sounds like track bike specifications.

Kopps is still open, claims to be the oldest bike shop in the country.
The label is from this bike as far as we know, s/n matches albeit handwritten, size, style and color also. Richard Schwinn says there's info on it he has never seen and when I floated the inch pitch theory he was adamant that it had nothing to do with this bike. All else lines up pretty well with what we have, wheels, levers, brakes, FD, HS, stem and seatpost. None of the part numbers on it correlate with info that I can find so who knows, maybe they are internal code.

Charlie Kopp had no info to add but thought it was pretty cool, they also claim to be the second oldest bike shop in the world.
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Old 06-11-18, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by crank_addict View Post
Good question. I have them on a 58 Vic Edwards with AVA stem.

Always interesting searching quality old pics of the era and pro racers. When zooming in one may spot a few with rando bars, various shifters, etc..

-----
OP bike is terrific!
Tx, couldn't agree more!
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