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Training help top speed

Old 02-15-18, 12:47 PM
  #26  
SyntaxMonstr
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Super helpful all around, thanks so much everyone!
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Old 02-15-18, 04:06 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Further, the same rider, same gear, same conditions, same line, can ride dramatically different F200s by changing the jump points.
Adding to this, this is where timing your pre F200 entry 50m becomes critical. Apparently it's pretty common, especially for those using smaller gears, to hit top speed at the start of or before the timed section. You want top speed around the exit of T2 on a 250m track. Timing the entry 50m will help you to establish your jump point. Also play with a longer windup, so more speed is developed before the drop in and see how that affects things. It does work for some people, so worth a try. It's also worth adding that I've seen a few fast guys that the jump point doesn't really affect their F200 much at all. I'm sure that doesn't help, but worth noting that it may really not be that critical, just so long as you're not jumping too early so as to hit top speed to soon
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Old 02-15-18, 06:11 PM
  #28  
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It also depends on your own abilities/skills. I've got two friends who are both hitting similar times, but one's got absolutely no jump, so he gets on top of a monstrous gear over 3 laps, whereas the other can go from 45kph in t3 of the penultimate lap and hit 68 kph by the time he hits the 200m line. I'm in that awkward middle ground where I burn out if I try to go for a long wind up, but don't have the jump to get on top of a gear quickly enough =(.
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Old 02-15-18, 06:17 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by SyntaxMonstr View Post
It also depends on your own abilities/skills. I've got two friends who are both hitting similar times, but one's got absolutely no jump, so he gets on top of a monstrous gear over 3 laps, whereas the other can go from 45kph in t3 of the penultimate lap and hit 68 kph by the time he hits the 200m line. I'm in that awkward middle ground where I burn out if I try to go for a long wind up, but don't have the jump to get on top of a gear quickly enough =(.
It could be worse. You could be like me. In the past, I've done a standing lap with the last 200M split is faster than my full windup flying 200m during the same weekend event.

I say that one day during a tournament, I'm going to simply do a rolling-flying 200M where I ride easy on the apron at walking pace then do a standing start for the last lap
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Old 02-16-18, 10:45 AM
  #30  
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This IS a great thread!

Being a relative noob, I'm still struggling with finding the right effort/line combination to use on a 333/335 meter track for the 200. I finally figured out (doh moment...) that I need to start my entry (at Hellyer) between one and two, the 200 meter line is about halfway down the backstraight, and I needed to be very close to speed at that point - not the entry of three. That said, I've still yet to get it right.

Which brings up the point that, for such a short "event", it is certainly highly nuanced and very difficult to get right.
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Old 02-16-18, 06:30 PM
  #31  
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Let's remember the OP's original question was about how to improve top speed, not how to improve 200 time. The two are different questions and I feel like we've had many threads on how to approach a 200, but not that many on how to improve top speed. As this is a weakness for me too, I'd love to hear more ideas on this.
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Old 02-17-18, 08:00 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
It could be worse. You could be like me. In the past, I've done a standing lap with the last 200M split is faster than my full windup flying 200m during the same weekend event.

I say that one day during a tournament, I'm going to simply do a rolling-flying 200M where I ride easy on the apron at walking pace then do a standing start for the last lap
SAME DUDE! Haha, for the longest time, my best f200 time was legitimately during a standing lap attempt. Didn't beat it until I improved my time a few months back, and even then, I'm convinced I paced the effort incorrectly.
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Old 02-17-18, 08:06 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
Let's remember the OP's original question was about how to improve top speed, not how to improve 200 time. The two are different questions and I feel like we've had many threads on how to approach a 200, but not that many on how to improve top speed. As this is a weakness for me too, I'd love to hear more ideas on this.
Quick conversation I had with my coach re. this was the following: big strength block involving 3-4 gym days with an emphasis on heavy lifting, 2-3 bike sessions featuring massive gears and stuff like starts, standing/rolling efforts, and flying efforts. Then follow this with a speed block in which it's the opposite - light gear work with loads of high cadence stuff (reasonable cadence, not the 200+ rpm stuff people brag about on social media), largely the same efforts, f200s/500s/750s, including efforts where you jump out of the saddle into/through the turns and sit to wind up the gear in the straights. Then dial it all in on your race gearing, taper, and see where you're at.

This might only work for me because of noob gainz and all that, but it's definitely upped my top speed so far. Still a long way off from where I'd like to be though. =/
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Old 02-17-18, 08:24 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by SyntaxMonstr View Post
Quick conversation I had with my coach re. this was the following: big strength block involving 3-4 gym days with an emphasis on heavy lifting, 2-3 bike sessions featuring massive gears and stuff like starts, standing/rolling efforts, and flying efforts. Then follow this with a speed block in which it's the opposite - light gear work with loads of high cadence stuff (reasonable cadence, not the 200+ rpm stuff people brag about on social media), largely the same efforts, f200s/500s/750s, including efforts where you jump out of the saddle into/through the turns and sit to wind up the gear in the straights. Then dial it all in on your race gearing, taper, and see where you're at.

This might only work for me because of noob gainz and all that, but it's definitely upped my top speed so far. Still a long way off from where I'd like to be though. =/
This is how my coach approaches it, too.
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Old 02-18-18, 07:08 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
Let's remember the OP's original question was about how to improve top speed, not how to improve 200 time. The two are different questions and I feel like we've had many threads on how to approach a 200, but not that many on how to improve top speed. As this is a weakness for me too, I'd love to hear more ideas on this.
Fair point.

For me, top speed is essentially about being strong enough to crank the pedals over at that speed. It's not just about being able to squat 300kg for 10 reps, otherwise every strongman/powerlifter/bodybuilder could just step onto a bike and rip out some great times/speeds. So I'm a strong believer in on the bike strength work. Big gear roling accels and accelerations on a gear 0-10" lower than race gear were a big part of what could have been a great year for me. Crap happened and season 2017/18 went out the window for me but I will be rinsing and repeating the program for next season. Also trainer work, strength stuff and Upupup drills. Consider, if you are chasing speed, it is worth spending solid time on that aspect. Moving to spinning and endurance phases aren't going to help you all that much if the speed isn't there to tune and endure. That could mean that you may have to sacrifice some of your season and goals and train through, but the end result will be worth it. Perhaps you can plan to step up in stages and phase things so you work towards a goal event this season but the end goal is further into the future.

Secondarily, but maybe just as important is aero. Working on your bike position is something you can do right now. Work on being smooth and low. When you're hitting 60+kph the aero factor is large, and positive changes could yield potentially big gains
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Old 02-18-18, 07:43 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
Fair point.

For me, top speed is essentially about being strong enough to crank the pedals over at that speed. It's not just about being able to squat 300kg for 10 reps, otherwise every strongman/powerlifter/bodybuilder could just step onto a bike and rip out some great times/speeds. So I'm a strong believer in on the bike strength work. Big gear roling accels and accelerations on a gear 0-10" lower than race gear were a big part of what could have been a great year for me. Crap happened and season 2017/18 went out the window for me but I will be rinsing and repeating the program for next season. Also trainer work, strength stuff and Upupup drills. Consider, if you are chasing speed, it is worth spending solid time on that aspect. Moving to spinning and endurance phases aren't going to help you all that much if the speed isn't there to tune and endure. That could mean that you may have to sacrifice some of your season and goals and train through, but the end result will be worth it. Perhaps you can plan to step up in stages and phase things so you work towards a goal event this season but the end goal is further into the future.

Secondarily, but maybe just as important is aero. Working on your bike position is something you can do right now. Work on being smooth and low. When you're hitting 60+kph the aero factor is large, and positive changes could yield potentially big gains
I think this inadvertently, yet eloquently, explains why coaches, clubs, training partners, or teammates with experience are useful.

The hardest thing for a newbie to do is figure out what is worth doing while avoiding what is not worth doing. It can be very stressful. I see it when people are learning how to program computers or learning a new programming language. There is so much information available and so much advice that it's simply not possible to heed it all.

My advice to new programmers is to find a single, well-throughout program and follow it and finish it. Then evaluate the good and bad about it and look elsewhere to fill in the gaps.

This is one huge benefit I gained by spending one season each under three different coaches that used significantly different programs. I didn't set out to do it that way, but looking back, it was very helpful in educating me such that I could then coach myself by mixing and matching pieces that worked from each. I gained a breadth and depth from them that I may not have by sticking with one of them for 3 seasons.

Now I have confidence in making really big changes in my program. But, if I hadn't followed those 3 programs, I'd doubt every single choice I make the entire season. And we all know that there is no room for doubt in sport.

Last edited by carleton; 02-18-18 at 07:57 PM. Reason: typos
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