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GPS for long distance touring?

Old 04-03-18, 08:05 PM
  #76  
njkayaker
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Originally Posted by GerryinHouston View Post
Ιf you read the quote you quoted (me) I said that the bike computer map data ARE lower resolution. What I mean is that they don't contain features like footpaths, or other paths. Has nothing to do with vector mapping. They just ignore the data. I got this many times in our trip, looking at purported straights that were forks or even intersections.
That's a map data problem. ("Low resolution" is not the right term for this.)

You need to be specific about what map you are talking about.

Openstreetmap maps include stuff like cycleways and foot paths.

Garmin's City Navigator maps are designed for cars (and don't include ways that cars can't use).

Openstreetmap data can be spotty but that often has stuff that Google doesn't.
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Old 04-04-18, 07:24 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
That's a map data problem. ("Low resolution" is not the right term for this.)

You need to be specific about what map you are talking about.

Openstreetmap maps include stuff like cycleways and foot paths.

Garmin's City Navigator maps are designed for cars (and don't include ways that cars can't use).

Openstreetmap data can be spotty but that often has stuff that Google doesn't.
Sorry, I don't know the right term, that's why I put the 'low resolution' in quotes.

The bike computer the bike rental company gave us last summer was not a brand that I recognized (European? Chinese? who knows).

I will look through the correspondence to see if it is mentioned somewhere. I talked to them quite a bit on navigation, because I wanted their files to upload to RwGPS. Eventually I got them and 'traced' (a RWGPS term) them to a RWGPS route that worked very well.

Since we are at it, I might just as well ask. What maps do the GARMIN bicycle computers use? Special bicycle centered maps or the City Navigator you mentioned above?

Thank in advance

Gerry
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Old 04-04-18, 09:06 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by GerryinHouston View Post
Sorry, I don't know the right term, that's why I put the 'low resolution' in quotes.
Smartphones and GPS units are basically the same things: they are small computers with displays and a GPS receiver.

The maps used on either smartphones and GPS units are just data loaded on to computers. Generally, one can install maps from various sources on them.

Some digital maps are raster (bitmap). Those maps can have issues with "resolution".

Originally Posted by GerryinHouston View Post
Since we are at it, I might just as well ask. What maps do the GARMIN bicycle computers use? Special bicycle centered maps or the City Navigator you mentioned above?
The current Garmins come with maps based on Openstreetmap data (as part of the base price). For older units, the maps were either extra or included in a bundle. Those maps where Garmin's City Navigator (CN) maps. These maps are very good (they are used in Garmin's car navigation units) but they don't include ways that cars don't use.

There are Garmin GPS units used for hiking and you can get topographic maps for Garmin GPS units.

Creating map data is expensive. There's is a strong market for car navigation but that doesn't really carry over into other uses (cycling). So, maps for those other uses have historically been under-served.

Openstreetmap (OSM) is a map database that anybody can contribute to. That means people with the interest and time can add things like cycleways. That's worked out very well in places like the Netherlands, Belgium, and Germany (for example). Another advantage to OSM is that the data is free to use and doesn't have burdensome restrictions on the use of that data. The problem with OSM is that, since it relies on volunteers to update it, the coverage can be spotty (some things are missing or inaccurate).

Google is a relative newcomer to mapping. It has a lot of money (and sees mapping as an opportunity to make money). They seem to have an interest in mapping "everything" (which is great). But there are a lot of restrictions on how their map data can be used. While you can download the Google maps so you don't need cell access (it's a recent feature), the way that is done is a little weird and subtle (you can't really download a map that can be used fully). Google doesn't provide a way of getting its map data so it can be used generally (in a Garmin GPS, for example).

Last edited by njkayaker; 04-04-18 at 09:19 AM.
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Old 04-04-18, 09:28 AM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by GerryinHouston View Post
Since we are at it, I might just as well ask. What maps do the GARMIN bicycle computers use? Special bicycle centered maps or the City Navigator you mentioned above?
In the past, the Edge units came with a "base map" that was utterly useless unless you like doing all your cycling on major highways.
You needed to buy the optional "City Navigator NT" maps to see all the roads and city streets.
This was the case with my 705.

After reading DCRainmakers instructions for loading OpenStreetMaps into an Edge, I tried that.
Good: They have a lot more detail than City Navigator NT, including every local offroad trail!
Bad: The 705 chokes every time you try to navigate a route with OSM maps loaded.

A few weeks ago I picked up a new Edge 1000 on closeout sale (for half the price of the 1030).
This was the second Edge unit Garmin shipped with OSM maps as standard. (Edge Touring was the first).
Note there are actually 4 maps that come with the unit, and can be individually enabled/disabled.
You can also add your own maps on an additional microSD card in the available slot.
I'm including a photo of my unit showing the scrolling map selection menu.
The one map that is disabled is a Colorado OSM map that I added in the microSD slot.
Attached Images
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map-menu.jpg (344.4 KB, 140 views)

Last edited by Shimagnolo; 04-04-18 at 09:45 AM.
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Old 04-04-18, 10:23 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
Smartphones and GPS units are basically the same things: they are small computers with displays and a GPS receiver.

The maps used on either smartphones and GPS units are just data loaded on to computers. Generally, one can install maps from various sources on them.

Some digital maps are raster (bitmap). Those maps can have issues with "resolution".



The current Garmins come with maps based on Openstreetmap data (as part of the base price). For older units, the maps were either extra or included in a bundle. Those maps where Garmin's City Navigator (CN) maps. These maps are very good (they are used in Garmin's car navigation units) but they don't include ways that cars don't use.

There are Garmin GPS units used for hiking and you can get topographic maps for Garmin GPS units.

Creating map data is expensive. There's is a strong market for car navigation but that doesn't really carry over into other uses (cycling). So, maps for those other uses have historically been under-served.

Openstreetmap (OSM) is a map database that anybody can contribute to. That means people with the interest and time can add things like cycleways. That's worked out very well in places like the Netherlands, Belgium, and Germany (for example). Another advantage to OSM is that the data is free to use and doesn't have burdensome restrictions on the use of that data. The problem with OSM is that, since it relies on volunteers to update it, the coverage can be spotty (some things are missing or inaccurate).

Google is a relative newcomer to mapping. It has a lot of money (and sees mapping as an opportunity to make money). They seem to have an interest in mapping "everything" (which is great). But there are a lot of restrictions on how their map data can be used. While you can download the Google maps so you don't need cell access (it's a recent feature), the way that is done is a little weird and subtle (you can't really download a map that can be used fully). Google doesn't provide a way of getting its map data so it can be used generally (in a Garmin GPS, for example).
Originally Posted by Shimagnolo View Post
In the past, the Edge units came with a "base map" that was utterly useless unless you like doing all your cycling on major highways.
You needed to buy the optional "City Navigator NT" maps to see all the roads and city streets.
This was the case with my 705.

After reading DCRainmakers instructions for loading OpenStreetMaps into an Edge, I tried that.
Good: They have a lot more detail than City Navigator NT, including every local offroad trail!
Bad: The 705 chokes every time you try to navigate a route with OSM maps loaded.

A few weeks ago I picked up a new Edge 1000 on closeout sale (for half the price of the 1030).
This was the second Edge unit Garmin shipped with OSM maps as standard. (Edge Touring was the first).
Note there are actually 4 maps that come with the unit, and can be individually enabled/disabled.
You can also add your own maps on an additional microSD card in the available slot.
I'm including a photo of my unit showing the scrolling map selection menu.
The one map that is disabled is a Colorado OSM map that I added in the microSD slot.
Very good information gentlemen. Thank you!
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Old 04-04-18, 10:27 AM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by Shimagnolo View Post
In the past, the Edge units came with a "base map" that was utterly useless unless you like doing all your cycling on major highways.
The basemap was never intended for navigation. It may include "major highways" but only in their approximate locations.

It isn't "utterly useless". It serves its intended purpose (which is limited) just fine.

The basemap provides some information for places that you don't have a detailed map to cover. It also is used for low zoom levels to make screen updating faster.

The value of the basemap is more clear if the maps on your unit cover small areas (this was, and still is, the typical situation for units used for hiking). The basemap provides some context for small maps (which is useful).

Originally Posted by Shimagnolo View Post
In the past, the Edge units came with a "base map" that was utterly useless unless you like doing all your cycling on major highways.
You needed to buy the optional "City Navigator NT" maps to see all the roads and city streets.
The CN maps cost Garmin real money to produce. It would have been nice if they were included but that would have made the units more expensive for people who didn't want maps.

One problem with the CN maps is that updates were not included.

The newer units come with OSM maps, which don't really cost Garmin anything to provide.

Most people who wanted maps bought the units in a bundle that included the maps (and other stuff). (The 800 was sold bundled and unbundled; I'm not sure what the case was with the 705).

Originally Posted by Shimagnolo View Post
Bad: The 705 chokes every time you try to navigate a route with OSM maps loaded.:
The 705 is a really ancient device. The problem is with the 705, not the maps (which work well on units starting from the 800). The 800 is much improved over the 705.

Originally Posted by Shimagnolo View Post
Note there are actually 4 maps that come with the unit, and can be individually enabled/disabled.
Garmin Cycle Map -> the map used for routing and updating the screen. This map is using the same OSM data that the "Openfietsmap" uses.
DEM -> Elevation data. This map is used by the newer units to generate routes based on elevation gain. It doesn't have display data (that is used by the Edge units).
Geocode -> Places, addresses, POIs, mapped to GPS coordinates. This map is used for "looking up" stuff. This is where the POIs that show up on the screen are.

The DEM (elevation) data doesn't really change (it's updated infrequently). OSM doesn't include elevation data.
Garmin provides its own geocode data because that lets them include their own "proprietary" data. It also allows them not to have to rely on OSM POI data (which might not be updated reliably). (It appears there can be issues with getting OSM data to be used for looking up locations.)

Last edited by njkayaker; 04-04-18 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 04-04-18, 11:18 AM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
Some of the advantages of dedicated GPS

Many people just find GPS unit’s easier to setup and use, others have done very clever tricks to use a phone, and have demonstrated that it can work as well as a GPS, you just have to read up on all the tricks and apply them
Thanks for the reply. With voice navigation along a predefined route, most of those advantages disappear.

1) You’re not risking a $600 smartphone on a $20 mount on the h-bar
My phone is tucked away in my bag ... less vulnerable than a mounted GPS unit
2) Unit dependent, the GPS unit screens tend to be easier to read in sunlight and in general.
True, but with voice navigation, I don't need to watch a screen
3) GPS unit’s are generally waterproof, vs. having to get an $100 Otterbox or pay for a waterproof phone. That’s related to the Android/Apple debate as well.
My bags are waterproof and so is my phone
4) Battery life is generally much better on a GPS vs. a phone. That can be alleviated with the use of a battery pack.
A battery pack the size and weight of a GPS unit would extend my phone well beyond the 8-12 hour limit of a dedicated GPS
5) GPS unit’s don’t rely on cell service and have the maps built in. On a phone and if riding in areas with no cell service, have to use a mapping app that has maps reside on the phone. Doable but just another thing to consider.
A phone can navigate offline maps while in airplane mode ... no cell signal required, and most modern smart phones have the capacity to store many days of a tour's map regions. They can be loaded/offloaded when wifi is present on multi-month tours.

The issue has been the lack of apps that will navigate (voice or otherwise) a pre-defined route. The subscription version of RidewithGPS can. I think Komoot can (will be testing soon).

Last edited by CreakingCrank; 04-04-18 at 11:23 AM.
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Old 04-04-18, 12:40 PM
  #83  
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[QUOTE=CreakingCrank;20264124]Thanks for the reply.

1-2 & 3 are assuming you want voice navigation. Did I miss that requirement in the OP ?. I know I'm pretty hard of hearing and VN would be a complete waste of time for me and even if I could hear it, I'd rather have it displaying on a screen in front of me as opposed to barking from a rear pocket (are your riding companion(s) OK with that ?), As well, and for navigation, I'd state most folks would want the navigating device on the h-bar, not in a back pocket where you need to keep taking it out to view (and how well does that work in the pouring rain ?.)

"A battery pack the size and weight of a GPS unit would extend my phone well beyond the 8-12 hour limit of a dedicated GPS"

Yes, I said that and it applies to a dedicated GPS unit as well. I've no idea how long my Garmin will run on an external battery. Typically though a dedicated GPS has better battery life then a smartphone and that's what I read the most.

But I think this topic has been beaten to death and note my post here:
https://www.bikeforums.net/touring/1...touring-3.html

"And on a really long tour and since you are carrying a phone anyway, it makes a lot of sense to minimize all the stuff you have to bring along, especially stuff needing power. Lots to be said for just a smartphone. Would certainly give a lot of thought to this method, even though I already own a G1000"
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Old 04-04-18, 02:18 PM
  #84  
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Having "voice navigation" would be a nice option to have.

It's not always clear. Being able to look at a map can be useful to sort things out.

I don't rely on just voice navigation in a car. I use the map too.
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Old 04-04-18, 10:37 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
Having "voice navigation" would be a nice option to have.

It's not always clear. Being able to look at a map can be useful to sort things out.

I don't rely on just voice navigation in a car. I use the map too.
Valid points. My favorite saying is "A test is worth three expert opinions" ... so ... I tested out Komoot's voice nav on a predefined route today. It worked great and was quite clear and on point with directions. A $20 waterproof Bluetooth earbud would be the final piece, so it could be heard reliably over traffic and wind.

One difference with car nav is the route is calculated, then the driver sees the map and route for the first time. Agree, voice alone would not be enough. I spend a lot of time planning/reviewing a bike tour route so there's a degree of familiarity. Will that familiarity and voice nav be enough? The next test will be to create and ride a route in an unfamiliar city, to find out.
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Old 04-04-18, 10:51 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by CreakingCrank View Post
One difference with car nav is the route is calculated, then the driver sees the map and route for the first time. Agree, voice alone would not be enough. I spend a lot of time planning/reviewing a bike tour route so there's a degree of familiarity. Will that familiarity and voice nav be enough? The next test will be to create and ride a route in an unfamiliar city, to find out.
A couple years ago I used an Edge 705 on a motorcycle to plot a round trip from here in the Boulder area, through the mountains to Pikes Peak, and back.
I was worried about missing turn indications, and on a motorcycle, there was no way to hear the beep from the Edge.
So what I did was: I used Google Streetview to walk through every point in the route where I needed to turn.
The idea was that the intersections would look familiar, even though I had never been there.
It worked out quite well!
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Old 04-05-18, 07:06 AM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by Shimagnolo View Post
A couple years ago I used an Edge 705 on a motorcycle to plot a round trip from here in the Boulder area, through the mountains to Pikes Peak, and back.
I was worried about missing turn indications, and on a motorcycle, there was no way to hear the beep from the Edge.
So what I did was: I used Google Streetview to walk through every point in the route where I needed to turn.
The idea was that the intersections would look familiar, even though I had never been there.
It worked out quite well!
Satellite view has revealed routes that are not on the map, sometimes the pictures are clear enough to get a rough idea of the traffic conditions.

I haven't had to rely on turn by turn directions for quite some time though, the occasional wrong turn makes a ride more interesting, if there isn't a deadline.
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Old 04-05-18, 08:10 AM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by CreakingCrank View Post
One difference with car nav is the route is calculated, then the driver sees the map and route for the first time.
This doesn't have to be the case. One can calculate the route ahead of time to review it (either using the device or even google maps on a browser).

Originally Posted by CreakingCrank View Post
Agree, voice alone would not be enough. I spend a lot of time planning/reviewing a bike tour route so there's a degree of familiarity.
Nothing wrong with reviewing stuff.

Originally Posted by CreakingCrank View Post
Will that familiarity and voice nav be enough?
I don't think so. In negotiating a confusing intersection, people won't recall enough details. Also, I sometimes use the map to count blocks (e.g., I have to pass 3 streets before the turn).

===============

Keep in mind that people are free to use these things any way they want.

I'm just trying to indicate how these things work and how they can be used.

If you choose not to look at the map, that's fine. But it might be helpful to know what you missing (for you or the other people reading this thread).

Last edited by njkayaker; 04-05-18 at 08:23 AM.
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Old 04-05-18, 10:05 AM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post

Keep in mind that people are free to use these things any way they want.

I'm just trying to indicate how these things work and how they can be used.

If you choose not to look at the map, that's fine. But it might be helpful to know what you missing (for you or the other people reading this thread).
Absolutely, to each their own. Some people take comfort in persistently knowing where they are and where they are going, and there's certainly nothing wrong with that.

I'm more in line with SHBR in that I've never used turn-by-turn of any kind on tour, and I don't sweat missing a turn (good way to meet the locals). Some kind of live navigation would be helpful at times though, like in a city or a bike path with a million turn options and no signs. The rest of the tour I wouldn't want, need or use turn-by-turn help so its hard for me to justify a pricey solution. For others, it makes sense.
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Old 06-26-18, 07:08 PM
  #90  
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Montana

This is a little old but anyone use a Garmin Montana 6XX series GPS. You can put Garmon maps or the open thingy maps. Batteries are replaceable. A proprietary or AA. There is a bicycle mount unpowered. It I bed the motorcycle mount with power could be connected to a USB to charge. Then there is a plug for a speaker. It won’t connect to a phone but yuh. An route on it. If it had Bluetooth and would connect to a phone app it would be perfect. On the bicycle I use a bike computer for ride data.
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Old 06-27-18, 07:49 AM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
The 1030 was just released....battery life is better, but it uses a bizarro proprietary battery socket....so you cannot use cheap USB sticks to charge on-the-go...and have to buy a $150 proprietary battery

Problem with phone. Lots of road where there's no service on any carrier or MVNO, not even 3G....sometimes not even 1x. See it every year on Tour de Nebraska. Which is a ding against Wahoo computers, as if you need to reroute you need a data connection--which in the sticks may not exist.

My Edge1000 does the trick...but needs a USB battery to have the legs for any ride longer than 6-7 hours. After that it is flat and dead.
The comment is not true. You can charge with a normal battery bank. I have one and used it on Vietnam tour.

Last edited by linus; 06-27-18 at 05:41 PM. Reason: Missed a word.
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Old 06-27-18, 04:33 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by linus View Post
The comment is not true. You can charge with a normal battery bank. I have one and used it on Vietnam.
I agree. It uses a standard micro-usb connection.
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