LeeG

a pound of bud costs that much?

Bikearound

Allow me to get on my soap box for a second, I think you have two types of bicycle enthusiasts, 1) is a guy that will ride anything because he likes to ride (think Ian Hibell) and 2) then you have the guy that is the bike lover who is willing to spend 15K on a bike but then he never rides it or it is ridden like a museum piece because it was hand built by whatever deity in the bike world. I think it's easy to confuse pedigree with function so one guys "best" is a museum piece while the other "best" is a very functional bike.

X-LinkedRider

Totally agree that the word Best is all relative, but if you simply write to say that, then the OP gained nothing from your post.

Okay OP, there are OBVIOUSLY plenty of variables that would argue one over the other. But if you have ever toured for more than 4 weeks and have had the opportunity to ride either the LHT and the Trek, I would be extremely surprised if you said the Trek fit your needs better. Every time I sat on a LHT whether it was sized properly for me or not, I loved the way the bike felt. There is a local guy who has his trek setup extremely well for touring and it is my size, and I still don't like the way it rights Compared. I am not a steel lover myself, but the LHT steel makes the bike stronger and more comfortable for the "Long Haul". IMO

Jed19

What Surly really needs to do is build the LHT with something better than the 4130 Cro-Moly crap it is built with.

Fantastic geometry, lousy frame pipes.

lucille

There are some allowances for duty free depending on how long you are abroad, but I don't think it would cover as much as the bike would cost.

Why don't you ask if the bike store will let you take both for a longer ride, and see which one is better for you. If you're ready to buy, I would get it from them, a really good relationship with a bike store is priceless.

staehpj1

I don't know that I could honestly say that even after my first tour. In the US you can be pretty far from a bike shop. I think it was about 1000 miles after Pueblo before we passed another bike shop on the Trans America. Granted there were some if you went out of your way, but even then they could be a two or three or maybe more days away on a bike. We went a couple days without seeing any kind of store a few times. Other places in the US are undoubtedly more remote than that.

True, but at least to some extent the more mechanical ability you have the better. It is something that most folks can learn and you won't learn it by paying someone else to do all of the work on your bike.

a1rabbit

lol!

You guys crack me up.


And yay, another super long post by me.

So I've had my mind set on the LHT for a month, it's been the bike I had decided to get and it was based on price. I'm not rich by any stretch, I'm a stay at home dad and we penny pinch a good bit. This will be my first "big" purchase, for myself, in a long time. Over a decade. Sometimes I think people on this forum forget just how much a bike purchase like this is for some of us (totally understandable too, I'm not knocking anyone! Everyone here has been awesome.). It's one of those things I don't need, and probably should not get, but I'm just gonna throw caution to the wind and do it anyway. I love camping, and I used to love biking, this is a great way for me to get out of the house and do some traveling on a budget and keep myself in shape so I can keep up with my growing son while giving us something to do together when he gets older. In the end, it's a lot less than plane tickets and everything else that comes with typical travel so I don't feel too guilty about the initial investment. However, I'm still looking for the best deal.

At first the two bikes I was looking at were the LHT and the 520, I did a lot of looking at both, read a lot of comments about both and ended up deciding that the LHT fit my budget better. Seemed the bike that the more budget conscious went for without sacrificing as much as they would with other lower priced bikes. The reviews were fantastic to go along with it. Once I decided on that bike I stopped worrying about the Trek. Now that the Trek is the same price I just wanted some opinions on which one others might go for if they found out Surly raised the price of their bike in the US to that of the 520 (Something a lot of people might instantly hate and refuse to get a Surly), or of Trek lowered their price to that of the Surly. Does one suddenly become better based on components, warranty, etc.

I do plan on buying here because of the fellow at the shop who is lowering his price to suit me. He's gonna give me his support whenever I need something and if he is this willing to drop the price by 400 bucks to get me on a bike I want then I bet he's willing to go that extra mile on everything else. He's someone I could see shipping me a part if I needed one somewhere. He's not the most "Local" but he's only 20-30 minutes away by car. The local is literally a block away.
Hopefully I’ll get a chance to ride both bikes, but the chances of him having both in stock on my size are not very good, he normally has to order them in. I like the Surly because of its heft, I’m about 200lbs at 6’2”, plus a load is quite a bit of weight. I do plan to ride the bike a lot without any added weight to it. My guess is I’d get used to how either one handles and it would just be second nature.

On a side note, I feel like I'm being cheap, I prefer to think I'm researching my investment. I called one shop here, it was the first one I called (this was two weeks ago) and I asked about the Surly LHT, asked the price and he said 1799. I was shocked. I was expecting 1250 or so. After a slight pause, this was our general conversation.

Me: "wow..." (I was about to speak more but he cut me off)
Him: "what?"
Me: "Do you happen to know why it's so much more expensive here than in the US? It can't just be duty and taxes, can it?" (I was not rude, I was asking an honest question)

His response was the worst I've ever had from anyone I've ever talked to at a business, especially one trying to sell me a $1800 bike.

Him: "Dude, Why are you BUSTIN' my balls over the price of a F**kin' Bike?? This is Canada, not the US, I don't know their prices! I just sell the bike!"

I explained myself, he continued to be rude and we hung up after he started yelling some more.

I'm still frustrated over the price, and I think I have the right to be. I really feel like people who want a Surly in Canada are bending over and getting worked hard. If not for this shop dropping the price I'd be paying a crazy amount of money ($1799 + taxes = $1888. If HST goes live it would jump to $2033! For a LHT! That’s DOUBLE the price of the US, insane!) For people who just go to a shop and want a "touring bike" here and see a LHT listed at 1799 and a 520 listed at 1399 they will assume the Surly is way better. It's just not right. It's where doing your homework pays off. That guy who thought I was busting some balls, probably would have been the same guy to tell me how much better of a bike I’m getting over the Trek for the extra cash.
Sometimes I wish I was a little more underhanded, but it’s not right, especially when I’m trying to teach my son right from wrong. I’d rather not tell him to do and I say and not as I do.

For those curious about importing a bike to Canada, here’s the breakdown as of April 2010.


Bringing the LHT back over the border legally. Assuming I don't try to talk the shop down in price, the bike is $1100.

$1100 + 8% (US Taxes) = $1188

Then you add on 13% duty.

$1188+ 13% = $1342.44

Then you add on 5% sales tax for BC. Other Provinces are different. (This is how he said it’s done, Canadian taxes after duty.)

$1342.44 + 5% = $1409.56

So the grand total is taken to 1409.56 if I get it before HST goes active. Right now we have GST (Government sales tax) and PST (Provincial sales tax). Currently now we only have to pay GST on the imported bike. HST will combine the two taxes for a combined 13%, if that happens we'd have to change the percentage of taxes to 13% from 5% taking the price up to $1516.96. The guy I talked to on the phone said he just got a memo today (April 22) about HST and how it will work once / if it goes live, he basically said people are not happy about it (Obviously) and they might have to figure some stuff out to keep fees in line. Side note, he was unpleasant to talk to, he did his job well and answered all questions, but he was rude in a subtle way.

BengeBoy 

Not to complicate your life, but you also might want to take a look at the touring bikes from Canadian companies in this price range:

- Jamis (Aurora or Aurora Elite)
- Norco (Fraser or Cabot)

a1rabbit

What is live without some complications?

I've checked out the Devinci's, the Norcos, the Jamis (bottom left) and the Rockey Mountain's.

BengeBoy 

Recent favorable review of the Rocky Mountain Sherpa at CGOAB:

https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/revie...age=1&nested=0

Oscuro

Uhhh, don't mind me, but you could also look to craigslist or Used Vancouver for a used touring bike. Recently there was a Miyata 1000 that was posted in the C&V section's "E-bay & Craigslist" thread for like $180...which is an outright STEAL!

Just the same, there was another Miyata 1000 posted here on the island for $200...it's sold already.

It is an option, and you can get amazing deals if you are patient...or lucky.

Oh, bike auction in Chilliwack, https://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/rd...704801359.html

Here's a Kuwhara Sage, MTB style with low-rider braze-ons for $160. Sixty-Fiver is an advocate of Kuwahara MTB's, and uses a Shasta as his touring bike, and another as his winter Commuter.
https://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/rc...704353135.html

Mikado set up for Touring, $250 https://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/rd...704301433.html

NoReg

I would get in touch with gene spicer, he will set you up with a Surly Frame for $430, postage isn't all that bad it will be like tax, and if you are lucky you may not pay that. Then just build it up. You may not save all that much money but you can get on the road with all the parts you want and bypass the mark-ups that are inevitable if there is someone repping Surly up here.

https://spicercycles.com/product-list...29-m3573-qc37/

The higher costs can be the result of several things. One is the dollar has risen quickly and that means that the stuff in the stores is still under old pricing, or may be. Another is the cost of representing a brand up here. Reps get the rights to rep a brand in Canada and that ads an additional layer of cost that either isn't there in the US, or if it is, is spread over more people. It can also be the case that parts are not the same and may be more expensive in the format chosen for the Canadian market. But that presumably isn't the deal in this case.

Was just looking at your breakout. There isn't any duty on US made bikes in Canada. Even though none of the parts are actually made in the US, I doubt that is what they will assess at the border. I have never had anything other than national treatment on bike stuff coming from the US. Your main upcharge is just the taxes you pay in Canada anyway. If you import by mail, you often are not required to pay the tax, so it ends up much cheaper than even that. For instance I just received 30 yards of sailcloth via Canada post, and for whatever reason there was nothing payable in duty or taxes. And the cloth was 1/10 the price of what I would have paid here since it was an ebay one off. Normally large packages or expensive purchases get nailed, but as I say it is just regular tax, GST/PST. However if you order something like an envelope of Paul components could amount to hundreds, but it will likely not be opened. This is ligitimate to a point. I think you are suppose to declare and pay all duty. But realistically it is enough to pay what the customs ask you to pay. Same deal as if the cops stop you for speeding. Who volunteers five other infractions he didn't even mention?

John Nelson

a1rabbit, I understand your annoyance at the LHT price in Canada, but I think you just have to let that frustration go. The price is what it costs you to buy it today. It matters not what somebody else can buy it for or what you might have bought it for yesterday. We all have to play the hand we're dealt. Although the shop owner was quite ill-advised, unprofessional and rude to answer you the way he did, he's probably not in the best position to explain why it costs what it does. You asked him a question he could not answer, and he reacted badly.

Make your decision on what it costs, not what you wish it would cost.

kayakdiver

I may be wrong.. and please correct me if I am.. Couldn't you avoid the WA state sales tax either at point of sale or at the border? I know I've had taxes returned to me when purchasing stuff up your way.

ryrulinc

I researched touring bikes for months when I was looking to upgrade my Novara Randonee and I went with the Rocky Mountain Sherpa 30. I ended up getting a good deal on a 2009 model at the end of 2009, several hundred less than retail. There are a few reasons I went with the Rocky Mountain over the other candidates...

1. Reynolds 853 tubing
2. Handbuilt wheels w/sealed cartidge hubs
3. Compact geometry w/tall head tube = comfortable
4. Proven paint durability

Each bike I researched had good and bad, I just went with the one that had the most good for me. I love everything about the RM, but will eventually gear it lower. Aside from that, it's the most comfortable, smoothest touring bike I've ever ridden - I absolutely love the bike.

And, since they only make a few hundred every year, chances are you won't bump into anyone else on one.

a1rabbit

Oh, he knew why it was the price it is. I called their other branch and talked to someone there about it and they explained the situation to me, from duty to how it's imported into Canada and where the extra fee's come from. The guy was just a jerk or had a really bad day.

I'd not say I'm letting it bother me too much or I'd not bother getting the bike, I understand how everyone feels shafted from time to time when it comes to import fee's, or what something is worth in one country compared to another. I've just never personally seen such a huge gap, even when our dollar was extremely low in comparison to what it is now.

I'm a happy guy, I don't let things like this get me down. If I come off as unreasonable, it's just one of those situations of text not representing our feelings the same way as spoken words.

kayakdiver

Well, I for one am glad you've figured this out. It would be a big purchase for me as well. This is a guy who rides a 6 year old carbon bike! I only have a 2010 Rondonee because a car decided to attack my 2008 Jamis Aurora. I'm hoping to purchase a new frame this summer to replace my TCR frame.....

Look at it this way... My TCR has 10's of thousands of miles. My Jamis did also before the accident. My Rondonee has close to 1500 miles.. Per mile cost is low.. It's handing over the cash that hurts.

I'm pretty sure I've saved way more money in health benefits over that period. So in the end I look at it as saving money in the long run.

acantor

Really, if you can get your hands on a used Miyata 1000, and if it's in good condition, and if it fits you, you will have one delightful ride. It's one of the finest production touring bikes ever made. Mine is 25 years old this year, and still going strong.

ddez

4130 chrome moly is good enough for top fuel and funny cars its good enough for me.

LeeG

that was an off the wall comment, for a utilitarian bike carrying 25lbs+ of crap I'd much rather spend the money on Cro-Mo crap than carbon fiber crap or titanium crap. Honestly a bike made of heavy crap carbon steel could be fine as long as I had nice wheels and tires.

onbike 1939

Given the budget and needs of the buyer, it seems the we should be talking about value. I too have had custom bikes costing the earth but that is not the point. In value terms the LHT is a very good buy indeed. I think it is a well-designed and competently made touring bike, and for a relatively modest price I was impressed by the one I made up. It is a proper touring bike, with a geometry that allows a proper touring position thanks to the tall steering tube.

foamy

If the whole point here is to "do the right thing," then by all means do it. It's about you doing something good for yourself. I'm sure it's well deserved. You have a LBS that's bending over backwards to get your business. If they're the same price, go ride 'em and buy the one that makes you happiest. You'd be helping the local economy, helping a local business and helping yourself to a better buying experience and (very probably) better service in the future. And you can do it all with a clear conscience and set a proper example for your son. It's the right thing to do.

But, you already knew this. You just got involved in over thinking it—something I can relate to.

Have fun and happy riding!

BigBlueToe

To the person who said the LHT's tubing is cro-moly crap: The folks at Surly seem like pretty savvy marketers. Maybe if they used better tubing the price of the frame/bike would go up and people would be less likely to buy it since it would no longer seem like as good a deal. I don't know. I do know that when I'm touring on my LHT I don't worry about the quality of the tubing. I know I'm on a dependable, good-handling tourer that I could afford.

To the original poster who is considering bike touring for its low cost: Have you factored in the price of pie? Seriously, I had some expectations for how cheaply I was going to travel on my first big tour (the west coast of the US.) I spent a lot more than I had expected due to the amount of food I consumed. But it was still far cheaper than car camping or a driving trip staying in motels. I also expected to lose a few pounds from the paunch around my middle. I ended up gaining 8 lbs., but it was muscle, and I ended up in the best shape of my life.

jackb

I, too, am considering these bikes, but most of the talk on this thread deals with other issues than the merits of either bike. Anyone have any substantive observations on these bikes based on experience with either?

LeeG

LHT for loaded touring with 2 sets of panniers front and back. Option for 26" wheels in larger sizes. Trek520 for unloaded and loaded riding but better handling (personal preference) when unloaded. There's nothing one bike could do the other couldn't do, except big tires on the LHT, it's just that one is more suited to heavy loads and one has a more natural road bike feel unloaded (from a steering standpoint).