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I find it amazing what advertising can condition people to accept

Old 08-24-20, 01:25 PM
  #226  
strangdang
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Advertising?

Does anyone really think advertising has influenced bike purchases to any great extent? I mean, there has not been any push to advertise directly to consumers since the Schwinn days of Captain Kangaroo in the 60ís. Most recent advertising is pointed toward enthusiasts already well involved in the sport. How many TV commercials have you seen for bicycles compared to say toothpaste, or deodorant, or cars, or almost anything else.
In gereral if folks in the lowest price ranges decide to get a bike they head over to Walmart or Dickís and probably see the names they heard when they were a kid, Schwinn, Diamond Back, Mongoose, and all the no name Ozoneís. At a slightly higher price point people head to the local bike shop where they are introduced to sizing, purpose intended, and weight versus performance decisions. The only name they might have heard of is usually Trek. Giant? Specialized? nope. Not until youíre involved in the sport do you know all the brand names. And then advertising is peripheral compared to peer recommendations, online reviews, and other influencers.
And those folks headed to Walmart for a Schwinn are getting a significantly better bike than the cheap bikes that were available when I started working in bike shops in the 1960ís, as long as they are assembled and adjusted correctly. Some of those bikes we sold during the original bike boom in the 1970ís were just god-awful- but they were lugged.
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Old 08-24-20, 02:10 PM
  #227  
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Originally Posted by strangdang View Post
Does anyone really think advertising has influenced bike purchases to any great extent? I mean, there has not been any push to advertise directly to consumers since the Schwinn days of Captain Kangaroo in the 60ís. Most recent advertising is pointed toward enthusiasts already well involved in the sport. How many TV commercials have you seen for bicycles compared to say toothpaste, or deodorant, or cars, or almost anything else.
In gereral if folks in the lowest price ranges decide to get a bike they head over to Walmart or Dickís and probably see the names they heard when they were a kid, Schwinn, Diamond Back, Mongoose, and all the no name Ozoneís. At a slightly higher price point people head to the local bike shop where they are introduced to sizing, purpose intended, and weight versus performance decisions. The only name they might have heard of is usually Trek. Giant? Specialized? nope. Not until youíre involved in the sport do you know all the brand names. And then advertising is peripheral compared to peer recommendations, online reviews, and other influencers.
And those folks headed to Walmart for a Schwinn are getting a significantly better bike than the cheap bikes that were available when I started working in bike shops in the 1960ís, as long as they are assembled and adjusted correctly. Some of those bikes we sold during the original bike boom in the 1970ís were just god-awful- but they were lugged.
As to the advertising, this is pretty spot-on. It just isn't like the auto industry with their enormous ad buys.


I think OP doesn't recognize the difference between advertising and marketing. There's really a lot less ad-buying going on as no one buys magazines anymore, but most of the marketing marketing is through the interwebs at this point, and clearly the big brands do spend some money on that.

Meantime, Trek just bought out the biggest LBO chain in NH (3 locations, but been around forever), and I think this is a different form of marketing--integrating the online and the LBS.
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Old 08-24-20, 02:15 PM
  #228  
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^^^ I'm sure it's sold a lot of Pelotons
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Old 08-24-20, 02:34 PM
  #229  
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
^^^ I'm sure it's sold a lot of Pelotons

Not a bike, guldarnit!
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Old 08-24-20, 03:21 PM
  #230  
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National advertising has a limited audience now. They are trying to reach...

1. Everyone (banks, car insurance, detergent, etc.)
2. People who are not on the Internet (could you have moderate to severe whateveritis? ask your doctor)
3. Fellow travelers (buy gold like our bought pundit just told you!)
4. Unemployed couch surfers (Peleton, trade school, etc)

Seems like everyone other than this is getting targeted advertising via social media, and you had better believe there is a ton of stuff coming up my Facebook feed. Some of it is just based on browsing (the latest I hit just now to find an example was Stages power meters) but there's some awful crap too. Right now there's someone pushing a bike whose carbon fiber frame does not have a seat tube
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Old 08-24-20, 04:38 PM
  #231  
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
National advertising has a limited audience now. They are trying to reach...

1. Everyone (banks, car insurance, detergent, etc.)
2. People who are not on the Internet (could you have moderate to severe whateveritis? ask your doctor)
3. Fellow travelers (buy gold like our bought pundit just told you!)
4. Unemployed couch surfers (Peleton, trade school, etc)

Seems like everyone other than this is getting targeted advertising via social media, and you had better believe there is a ton of stuff coming up my Facebook feed. Some of it is just based on browsing (the latest I hit just now to find an example was Stages power meters) but there's some awful crap too. Right now there's someone pushing a bike whose carbon fiber frame does not have a seat tube
5. People who menstruate.
6. People with teeth (mostly toothpaste).
7. People without teeth (Polident).
8. People who have forgotten what snake oil is (Prevagen).
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Old 08-24-20, 04:47 PM
  #232  
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My understanding is manganese molybdenum steel (531, I have a 77 Jack Taylor tandem that's fillet brazed) cannot be welded (or welding would weaken it? any metallurgists?) But chrome moly can be welded without losing strength (Surly, etc.) As can plumbing pipe but that's weak, chrome moly and 531 have similar strength


So: lugs needed for molymang, not for chromemoly, either way, strength is similar, lugs would add weight to a chrome moly frame


As for carbon fiber, lookup the youtube guy who cuts frames in half, some are better made, bubbles etc (Trek was good.) Carbon (like steel,) strength and quality varies, you get what you pay for, is twice the price worth 20% better? your choice.

Sub kilo frame is possible in carbon, steel, alu but carbon stiffer.
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Old 08-24-20, 09:01 PM
  #233  
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Originally Posted by cycology View Post
My understanding is manganese molybdenum steel (531, I have a 77 Jack Taylor tandem that's fillet brazed) cannot be welded (or welding would weaken it? any metallurgists?) But chrome moly can be welded without losing strength (Surly, etc.) As can plumbing pipe but that's weak, chrome moly and 531 have similar strength


So: lugs needed for molymang, not for chromemoly, either way, strength is similar, lugs would add weight to a chrome moly frame


As for carbon fiber, lookup the youtube guy who cuts frames in half, some are better made, bubbles etc (Trek was good.) Carbon (like steel,) strength and quality varies, you get what you pay for, is twice the price worth 20% better? your choice.

Sub kilo frame is possible in carbon, steel, alu but carbon stiffer.
A sub-kilo steel frame, in even a medium size and built with the best steels out there, would be a stretch. If possible, it would ride like a noodle.
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Old 08-25-20, 09:24 AM
  #234  
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Originally Posted by jim p View Post
Everyone needs to experience an old 40 lb bike with steel rims so that they can appreciate the newer bikes.

I am still riding a 40 year old bike but I may up grade any day.
You are quite right. My first full sized bike for quite a while weighed half of my weight. Riding the sucker on a gravel road into a 40 mile an hour March wind was a tussle.
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Old 08-26-20, 10:27 AM
  #235  
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Originally Posted by ClydeClydeson View Post
Most mass produced lugged steel frames from Europe up to the 80s were pretty crap. I currently have a Fuji and Raleigh both made in the early 80s and the Raleigh looks like it was made by school children. I have also had older French bikes and seen Italian bikes that very much agree with this.

Furthermore, a study was conducted by Keith Bontrager at UCSC that indicated that TIG welding resulted in a stronger steel frame than brazing. The durability of old frames compared to new frames, in my experience, reflects this.
Early tig frames generally were cheap and poorly made with heavy, thick tubing and even then were prone to breaking. I never saw many lugged frames that I considered "crap" but I'm sure some existed.
It's a small point and I realize a well made frame transcends construction technique. My old racing Cannondale featured some of the ugliest welds you've ever seen but still managed to blow the doors off beautiful Italian super bikes of the day. In short, it's all good.
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Old 08-26-20, 10:46 AM
  #236  
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This thread is good and interesting. But insults started to fly again and the thread cleaned up. Let’s keep discussions on topic, without insults, and without trolling please.
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Old 08-26-20, 11:11 AM
  #237  
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Originally Posted by jim p View Post
Everyone needs to experience an old 40 lb bike with steel rims so that they can appreciate the newer bikes.

I am still riding a 40 year old bike but I may up grade any day.
My two favorite bikes (right now) are a 28 year old steel Ritchey, (upgraded with 16 year old 7800 brifters and rear derailleur), and a brand spanking new Canyon with a carbon frame, 11 speeds, and disc brakes. Next in line is a 30 year old Battaglin MAX with 14 year old components.

I love the steel bikes, but I'm scoring more PRs on the Canyon.
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Old 08-26-20, 11:47 AM
  #238  
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid View Post
Let's see:
  • claiming older technology is better than anything new
  • claiming "no point" to new tech, while remaining completely ignorant to how new tech was created
  • completely ignorant of why there is demand for new tech
  • included mandatory xenophobic rant about "Chinese" manufacturing (while typing on a device that no doubt contains components made in China)
  • included mandatory derision towards "advertising"
  • implies self-superiority (because surely OP hasn't been "led by the nose" by those insidious "advertisers" right?)

okay, that's it. I scored a BOOMER BINGO!

where do I redeem my card?
A pity that it seems humorous to insult older people. I'd though that cyclist would be united it their love of cycling.
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Old 08-26-20, 12:08 PM
  #239  
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Not sure anyone is insulting "older people." People here have been poking fun at a bunch of unsubstantiated prejudices offered up by a guy who claims that everything in the past was wonderful and went downhill, and who also claims that people are sheep, going wherever the advertising shepherd drives them (which is itself pretty insulting to everyone.)

The only "ageist" sort of comment int he post you highlighted was the "boomer bingo" line, and yeah, there are times when it actually fits and can be quite funny. it has a specific meaning about a specific class of people who have decided to remain stuck in the past and claim that nostalgia is fact, and if ti applies, how can people to which it applies complain?

People can call me old, fat, and slow, and is that supposed to be wrong? Not if you have ever seen me ... or waited for me on group rides.
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Old 08-26-20, 02:50 PM
  #240  
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Just remember old people have decades of experience to base their opinions on. They have sorted out the real and the hype of advertising.

Dont get me wrong, advertising lets everyone know what is new and available. Then every individual should decide if what is being pushed is real or hype. New is not always better.
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Old 08-26-20, 03:00 PM
  #241  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
Just remember old people have decades of experience to base their opinions on.
Those decades of experience don't matter if someone can't remember what they are doing from one day to the next.
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Old 08-27-20, 02:19 AM
  #242  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
Just remember old people have decades of experience to base their opinions on.
Let's be honest, some old folks are old and wise, and some have wasted their lives believing the same crap they were told in high school, and some never mastered critical thinking and think they are smart but are just opinionated.
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Old 08-27-20, 04:03 AM
  #243  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
Just remember old people have decades of experience to base their opinions on. They have sorted out the real and the hype of advertising.
https://www.brookdale.com/en/brookda...void-them.html
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Old 08-27-20, 05:20 AM
  #244  
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And some people just pretend to be old.
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Old 08-27-20, 05:38 AM
  #245  
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We still haven't seen the "proof of life" bent pics, have we?
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Old 08-27-20, 06:49 AM
  #246  
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Who among us can forget the famous "Nice Butt Weld" advertising campaign of 1997-2002?
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Old 08-27-20, 07:14 AM
  #247  
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
We still haven't seen the "proof of life" bent pics, have we?
We have not. Perhaps the current pandemic has caused a slow down at Fotomat and it's taking longer than normal to get 110 film developed.
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Old 08-28-20, 09:24 PM
  #248  
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
Those decades of experience don't matter if someone can't remember what they are doing from one day to the next.
Not a problem in my case.

And in my case as a life long mechanical and electronic tech, I base my decisions on cold logic. Just because something is new, doesnt automatically make it better. It has to be proved better.

The best example that I can think of in this moment is CVT transmissions in some cars. They have been known to lunch themselves in less than 50 thousand miles. My nephew bought a car with one for his wife, and it destroyed itself at about 40K.

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Old 08-28-20, 09:38 PM
  #249  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
Not a problem in my case.

And in my case as a life long mechanical and electronic tech, I base my decisions on cold logic. Just because something is new, doesnt automatically make it better. It has to be proved better.

The best example that I can think of in this moment is CVT transmissions in some cars. They have been known to lunch themselves in less than 50 thousand miles. My nephew bought a car with one for his wife, and it destroyed itself at about 40K.
Mine has 150k...anecdotal evidence is the best evidence. :-)
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Old 08-28-20, 10:17 PM
  #250  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
​​The best example that I can think of in this moment is CVT transmissions in some cars. They have been known to lunch themselves in less than 50 thousand miles. My nephew bought a car with one for his wife, and it destroyed itself at about 40K.
This is dumb. It's not like there aren't examples of other types of transmissions that "been known to lunch themselves in less than 50 thousand miles".
​​​​​​
Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
Just because something is new, doesnt automatically make it better. It has to be proved better.
This is dumb too. Who said that newer is necessarily better?

Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
And in my case as a life long mechanical and electronic tech, I base my decisions on cold logic.
If this was true, you would have not said the dumb things above.

Last edited by njkayaker; 08-29-20 at 04:59 AM.
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