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Where are the Wiliers?

Old 12-18-21, 07:17 AM
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Where are the Wiliers?

For such an old brand I feel like I never see them posted. If there’s a “Show me your Wilier” thread I couldn’t find it. I’d love to see some member’s Wiliers.
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Old 12-18-21, 07:54 AM
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Great idea. I have nothing to add besides: still (or again) for sale.

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Old 12-18-21, 08:20 AM
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Bikes: Subject to change at any given moment but currently is...... Colnago Mapei, Colnago C40, Wilier Triestina Carbon, Wilier Triestina Ramato, Follis 472, Peugeot PX60, Razesa, Orbea Terra, Soma Pescadero and 1/2 owner of a Santana tandem.

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Here’s the wife and my Ramato’s, hers is in such incredible condition it looks virtually new.

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Old 12-18-21, 08:52 AM
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Does it count if I thought about about buying one? My size, cambio corsa, hard to resist.

Scambio 064 by iabisdb, on Flickr
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Old 12-18-21, 09:06 AM
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a question for the Wilier experts... how did the company get so linked to a specific type and color of finish? And exactly how fast does it get damaged? My understanding is that this is a cromovelato method, which is a translucent(?) lacquer over a polished chrome tube. The lacquer tends to have a hard time adhering to the polished chrome, and I suspect that the lacquer itself isn't as rugged as more common paint types.

No question that it is a stunning look, though!

Steve in Peoria
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Old 12-18-21, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by iab View Post
Does it count if I thought about about buying one? My size, cambio corsa, hard to resist.

Scambio 064 by iabisdb, on Flickr
Why (and how) did you resist?
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Old 12-18-21, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by CMAW View Post
Great idea. I have nothing to add besides: still (or again) for sale.

Oh how I wish. What size?
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Old 12-18-21, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by steelbikeguy View Post
a question for the Wilier experts... how did the company get so linked to a specific type and color of finish? And exactly how fast does it get damaged? My understanding is that this is a cromovelato method, which is a translucent(?) lacquer over a polished chrome tube. The lacquer tends to have a hard time adhering to the polished chrome, and I suspect that the lacquer itself isn't as rugged as more common paint types.

No question that it is a stunning look, though!

Steve in Peoria
Check this video out.
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Old 12-18-21, 10:41 AM
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There is a really nice history of the company on their website:
https://wilier.com/story/en/
The gist is that back in the beginning they were looking for a unique finish and came up with the idea of copper plating their frames. In later years that morphed into the cromovelato transparent coppery paint over chrome that most modern bikes were done in.
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Old 12-18-21, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by shoota View Post
Check this video out. <link deleted>
I remember that video... and I still think it was a bit disparaging to the vintage style. I did catch the part, where they were sitting at the cafe, where Simon says that it is a copper plated frame.
I also found a BikeRadar article that says that it is a cromovelato ramato scheme, which includes copper plating. Does that mean that it's copper plating with a clear coat?

the BikeRadar article: https://www.bikeradar.com/news/wilie...ted-race-bike/
"The special edition frame features the brand’s famous cromovelato ramato finish (translated from Italian this means copper plated) — a process Wilier pioneered in 1947 that was used until the 1980s when race bikes were made from steel.
Wilier said the use of this galvanising process was a first for the bike industry and also required the first use of a clear coat on a frame to protect the finish.
The original bikes were finished with gold decals that were painted by hand using a fine horsehair brush."

that does indeed indicate that they've clear coated over copper.
Now I'm wondering how they worked the chrome into their production process. The best chroming that I've heard of uses three layers of plating... a layer of copper on the substrate, then nickel, and then finally chrome on top (with polishing of the copper and nickel first). I'm guessing that they must mask off the areas that will not get chromed prior to placing it in the chroming tank?

The Wilier website has more detail.... quite a bit more! :


“Superlight, high resistance steel pipes, Campagnolo gears, leather racing saddle, frame with patented threaded Wilier galvanic treatment”.

In the period immediately after the War, the catalogue, in four languages, listed the main features of the bikes manufactured at the foot of Monte Grappa. The “speciale corsa – tipo Giro d’Italia” model was top of the range, identical to the one used by Magni, Cottur, Martini, Bevilacqua, Maggini and all the racers of the Bassano team. The advert clearly stated “100% copper bikes”. A unique characteristic, unrepeatable and immediately eye catching. The copper plating proved successful test after test, in the painting department headed by Bruno Villari, class of 1908, who had been kept away from home by the War for many years. A stroke of genius, driven by the desire to create something different for a team which believed in an Italian Trieste. There were many attempts, worthy of a medieval alchemist lab. Bruno Villari, who had an eye for colours, insisted. For Wilier he did not want those common and overused colours, but something different and special that would impress people. He mixed dozens of colours, poured and removed diluent, nitrate and white spirit to find a paint which looked like the red of the jersey. He thought loading carmine with traces of black was too dull. He was about to give up and use an industrial paint when he had an idea which radically changed Wilier bikes, giving them a jewel like quality. The idea came to him while observing the galvanic procedure originating from the passage of electrical current in the tub containing the electrolytic bath. Anode, cathode, ions, mineral salts and infinitesimal deposits on the surfaces to be treated. Chemistry, electrochemistry and mechanics. After experiments and attempts – he went as far as taking home some pieces of zinc-coated pipes to continue experimenting in the oven of his inexpensive kitchen - Villari realised the potential of electrolysis and managed to entirely copper a frame.



Inside the factory in Bassano. Wilier Triestina’s victories help to rise the sales of common bicycles.

When Dal Molin saw it, he could hardly believe his eyes. He immediately ordered the factory manager, Battistello, to complete it by assembling all the accessories: Brooks saddle, handlebar, pedals, gears, brakes, Regina extra chain, rims, tyres. The bicycle was exhibited in the corridor of the entrance to the factory, opposite the chief's office. Long lines of employees, warehouse operators, workers, customers and suppliers started to form straight away, in adoration of that sunshine radiating jewel. However, Bruno Villari was not entirely pleased. Something bothered him. “The copper domes of the bell towers in the mountains, the onion-shaped one – he would brood while remembering the villages he had crossed when wearing his uniform – in the space of a few weeks after being replaced, they lose their original shine and turn green due to oxidation”. His prediction came true. As the days went by, the bike became matt and the copper plating lost its shine. The first few stains started to appear. Oxidation continued relentlessly and the colour of the sun quickly turned to green. What could they do? Villari did not despair. He went back to the laboratory and resumed work. “Air – he said to himself, although he did not know the laws of chemistry – causes the oxidation. If I can prevent it coming into direct contact with the copper plating, it will be okay”. He ran to the workshop and inquired about all the transparent paints available. He talked to Bortolo Guazzo, who had learnt the ropes at the prestigious garage, specialised in creating luxurious bodywork for high-powered cars. His search was over when he found a transparent holding paint. Applied over the copper plating as soon as the electrolytic process was completed, it would create a water-proof film that prevented air from attacking the copper, thus retaining the original shine. To make the bikes even smarter and original, Villari thought of enhancing them with a series of golden threads outlining the frame. A sort of lace to make the bike stand out, like in exclusive high fashion garments. How could he make them? In the painting department he found an ally in Remo Sessi, an attentive and keen apprentice that would never complain about working outside normal office hours. He lived in Angarano, just beyond the bridge. Villari called him as he knew about his skills and precise and steady hand: “Would you be up to marking the golden threads?” Remo looked at him sternly. He gazed at the copper plated frame and thought for a moment before saying “yes” with determination.



He picked the thinnest paintbrush and removed what he thought was excess bristle. He left five very long hairs and dipped them in the small bottle of golden polish. He dried the excess colour and started painting. With his thumb he would keep the right distance between the bristle and the frame. His hand would run steadily and fast along the entire frame. There and back again. A perfect line, free of smudges, that looked like it had been drawn with a ruler. He completed the work on the other two pipes and the forks. The end result was excellent. He managed to combine the lines to form a kind of arabesque. From that day onwards Remo Sessi become the official threader at Wilier Triestina. His work was not confined to the very special racing bikes. It was also required for the “ultra luxurious” models for men, women and sports, copper plated, grey and black, depending on the many orders that were being received at via Colomba. Remo Sessi's skills did not go unnoticed. He went as far as creating his own ultra-thin paintbrushes, which he was very jealous about, by selecting and binding together four to five pig hairs he would find at one of his friend's house, at the end of a long and small stick. His lines would always prove perfect, straight, determined and with no smudges. He grew famous. Representatives from other companies approached him. Also Bianchi showed an interest in him and tried to secure his valuable collaboration. When work started to be scarce and the crisis developed near the bank of the river Brenta, Remo Sessi took his leave. He moved to Milan at the age of 25. He found a job at Innocenti as head of the painting department. His former boss, Bruno Villari, on the other hand, continued to show off his talent at Faacme, one of the first few companies to manufacture metal stove-enamelled cabinets along the lines of “American kitchens”.
Neat!
I now know that it isn't the usual cromovelato... although I now wonder if it is any easier to get clear coat to stick to polished copper than it is to get lacquer to stick to polished chrome.
Steve in Peoria

Last edited by steelbikeguy; 12-18-21 at 05:00 PM.
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Old 12-18-21, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by steelbikeguy View Post
Neat!
I now know that it isn't the usual cromovelato... although I now wonder if it is any easier to get clear coat to stick to polished copper than it is to get lacquer to stick to polished chrome.
Steve in Peoria
Hmmm....

A lot of things don't make sense in that story. First, ever look at a damaged Wilier? If the "copper" has chipped, you see chrome. Why? Is there copper plating on top of chrome? Why? Copper binds to steel so it doesn't "chip" off, so if it "chips" off of chrome, why put it on chrome in the first place if you are going to clear over it?

All the damaged Wiliers I have seen look like translucent paint on chrome. I think there alchemists came up with a unique paint that looks like copper, and may even have copper in it. But it is nonetheless paint on chrome. I most certainly could be wrong, but I'm not buying their story anytime soon.
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Old 12-18-21, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by iab View Post
Hmmm....

A lot of things don't make sense in that story. First, ever look at a damaged Wilier? If the "copper" has chipped, you see chrome. Why? Is there copper plating on top of chrome? Why? Copper binds to steel so it doesn't "chip" off, so if it "chips" off of chrome, why put it on chrome in the first place if you are going to clear over it?

All the damaged Wiliers I have seen look like translucent paint on chrome. I think there alchemists came up with a unique paint that looks like copper, and may even have copper in it. But it is nonetheless paint on chrome. I most certainly could be wrong, but I'm not buying their story anytime soon.
Wilier must not be doing a good job of marketing, because I could only find one good set of photos showing some damage to this type of finish.
https://globalvintagemedia.com/wilie...ovelato-detail



That sure looks like paint peeling away from the damage on the chainstay. There are more photos on the site that show other damage where it looks like chrome peeking out under the damage.
Wilier's marketing seems pretty insistent on the story about copper plating, but the visual evidence seems to indicate a conventional cromovelato technique.

Steve in Peoria

oh.. I checked my photos, and happen to have a shot of a worn Wilier that was at the swap meet at the 2018 Classic Rendezvous event. That top tube has seen a bit of wear, and that looks like chrome underneath.

hi res version: https://live.staticflickr.com/1728/4...44e5eb_k_d.jpg
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Old 12-18-21, 02:58 PM
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Pretty sure it’s copper plating over chrome.
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Old 12-18-21, 03:05 PM
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Came across an interesting one in Vicenza a couple of months ago:

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Old 12-18-21, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by shoota View Post
Oh how I wish. What size?
That is the web site photo, you can get any size you want starting at $3,600.
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Old 12-18-21, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by shoota View Post
Pretty sure it’s copper plating over chrome.
If true, and assuming it's clear coated, show me a Wilier with turqoise (oxidized copper) on it where the clear coat chipped off. Can anyone provide a picture showing an oxidized copper Wilier - even a tiny bit of the frame?

Remember that my Italian father taught me not to let the truth get in the way of a good story.

I'm with @iab on this one. This sounds like a cow tipping story to me.
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Old 12-18-21, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
If true, and assuming it's clear coated, show me a Wilier with turqoise (oxidized copper) on it where the clear coat chipped off. Can anyone provide a picture showing an oxidized copper Wilier - even a tiny bit of the frame?
......
I had similar thoughts.
How many people have thought a bare steel frame looked cool, and just clear coated it? Some months later, many have reported getting rust forming under the clear coat. I can't imagine that copper is less prone to oxidation than steel (but what the heck do I know?). Seems like Wilier would have had similar oxidation issues with clear coat, although there is a chance that they started out with something a lot different than modern clear coat.

Steve in Peoria
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Old 12-18-21, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
If true, and assuming it's clear coated, show me a Wilier with turqoise (oxidized copper) on it where the clear coat chipped off. Can anyone provide a picture showing an oxidized copper Wilier - even a tiny bit of the frame?

Remember that my Italian father taught me not to let the truth get in the way of a good story.

I'm with @iab on this one. This sounds like a cow tipping story to me.
I won’t even begin to pretend to understand the process lol.
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Old 12-18-21, 08:45 PM
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Here is an example of a copper plated bicycle
Rare 1925 Copper plated Appelhans Track Bike | Classic Cycle Bainbridge Island Kitsap County

The Wilier is not copper plated. If it was, doing it over chrome wouldn't matter because there would be no translucence. It'd be solid copper.
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Old 12-18-21, 09:29 PM
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Copper forms an oxide in air and it is not shinny. Wiliers used a chromovelato, which was a candy sprayed over chrome w/o a primer, obviously to get the effect, so it did not stick to the chrome and flaked off or I would have one.
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Old 12-19-21, 04:46 AM
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Origin story is likely true (from the steel-vintage site):


copper plated Wilier
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Old 12-19-21, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by CMAW View Post
Origin story is likely true (from the steel-vintage site)
Perhaps Wilier used both methods? When copper plating proved too costly, they moved to paint? The CC bike certainly has the look of oxidised copper, but none of the others on the steel-vintage site. The others are in remarkable condition, with minimal chipping only around the cable guides on the BB.

I believe the only way to settle this is to buy one for myself.
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Old 12-19-21, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by iab View Post
Perhaps Wilier used both methods? When copper plating proved too costly, they moved to paint? The CC bike certainly has the look of oxidised copper, but none of the others on the steel-vintage site. The others are in remarkable condition, with minimal chipping only around the cable guides on the BB.

I believe the only way to settle this is to buy one for myself.
Yeah, big difference between the two finishes.

We'll eagerly await your addition to the thread.
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Old 12-19-21, 01:51 PM
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Only the earliest frames from the original company where copper plated. This is around 40's. The company never got up to speed after the war. It went out of business. The name was bought in the 1980's and restarted. The ramata finish by that company are paint over chrome.
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Old 12-19-21, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike_Kelly View Post
Only the earliest frames from the original company where copper plated. This is around 40's. The company never got up to speed after the war. It went out of business. The name was bought in the 1980's and restarted. The ramata finish by that company are paint over chrome.
I had no idea there was a 40 year lull, that explains a lot.
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