fearing the slow good bye to rim brake bikes
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It’s always interesting watching the debates devolve as a new technology becomes accepted. For acceptance to succeed it is because the product or technology is superior overall than what is being replaced. The luddites crawl out of the woodwork hanging on by whatever tenuous threads of logic to defend the obviously dated and inferior equipment. Clipless pedals, Index shifting, Brifters, 700C Clinchers, Carbon, Low spoke count wheels, Tubeless, Electronic Shifting, GPS Bike computers, 2X drive systems and now disc brakes. Anyone who has spent any extended time on an quality disc brake bike especially in the mountains or in adverse conditions knows they function better and are nicer to use than rim brakes. This is the reason a vast majority of passionate cyclists prefer and enjoy disc brake bicycles. To each their own however defending a rim brake bike as just a larger disc but not taking into account the inherently flexible calipers and cable system is laughable. The advantages of hydraulic actuation and a rock solid caliper design is overwhelming.
In other words, these arguments over new tech are less about superiority and more about personal priorities and preferences.
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I'm not sure if each of these technologies is "superior overall," or if some of them are superior for some riders, and irrelevant or inferior for others. Easy example: I find clipless pedals superior on my road bike, but would never run them on my city commuter bike.
In other words, these arguments over new tech are less about superiority and more about personal priorities and preferences.
In other words, these arguments over new tech are less about superiority and more about personal priorities and preferences.
But I prefer a steel frame to a carbon one for touring for example because in that use case I would argue that steel is superior. These forums usually devolve into an all or nothing debate which triggers the contrarian in me.
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It may not be pointless to everyone. It highlights the fact that what we call disk brakes are not inherently better than what we call rim brakes, because in fact they're the same thing. One of them just has a much smaller diameter rotor (less mechanical advantage), and also weighs more. The tradeoff for those limitations are that you can use carbon rims, and also avoid overheating the rims under long hard braking. A lot of people mention other things like mud, or fender clearance. There are advantages and disadvantages to both, and people should choose based on their actual requirements. It's definitely not a "newer is better" thing.
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The stretch of approximately 1 meter of brake cable is noticeable as is the slack in the various junctions in the system. As hydraulic braking systems have for all intents zero compression except a very small amount of expansion of the brake housing under very high pressures. Hydraulically actuated brakes are vastly superior to cable in direct feel and transfer of energy.
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But will always be heavier.
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I'm not sure that's actually true. A lot of people talk about disk brakes as though they're a completely different type of brakes, and are somehow "better". In their mind they are comparing disk brakes to drum brakes (like on a car). In fact, rim brakes are disk brakes that simply use the rim as the rotor.
Rim brakes use the rim to brake.
Disc brakes use a disc to brake.
^ see that? Different things are used for braking. Thst makes them different.
I understand what you are trying to say and find it of no benefit. It does no good to stand up any time someone says 'I like disc brakes' and tell them that actually their disc brakes are the same as a rim brake.
Find another hill to die on.
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They are a completely different type of brake, which is why people speak of them in that manner.
Rim brakes use the rim to brake.
Disc brakes use a disc to brake.
^ see that? Different things are used for braking. Thst makes them different.
I understand what you are trying to say and find it of no benefit. It does no good to stand up any time someone says 'I like disc brakes' and tell them that actually their disc brakes are the same as a rim brake.
Find another hill to die on.
Rim brakes use the rim to brake.
Disc brakes use a disc to brake.
^ see that? Different things are used for braking. Thst makes them different.
I understand what you are trying to say and find it of no benefit. It does no good to stand up any time someone says 'I like disc brakes' and tell them that actually their disc brakes are the same as a rim brake.
Find another hill to die on.
Are you really having trouble understanding a bicycle wheel as a rotating disk? With rim brakes, the braking surfaces of that rotor are simply at the outermost edge of that large rotating disk. Don't let the hollow part in the middle fool you - those spokes are part of the disk. It might be easier to visualize a solid wheel instead of a spoked wheel - then it's easier to see that they are the exact same type of brake, differing only in execution and complexity, and of course the diameter of the disk.
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Both varieties use calipers to squeeze brake pads against a rotating disc, causing friction which slows down the rotation of that disk, to which the tire is attached.
Are you really having trouble understanding a bicycle wheel as a rotating disk? With rim brakes, the braking surfaces of that rotor are simply at the outermost edge of that large rotating disk. Don't let the hollow part in the middle fool you - those spokes are part of the disk. It might be easier to visualize a solid wheel instead of a spoked wheel - then it's easier to see that they are the exact same type of brake, differing only in execution and complexity, and of course the diameter of the disk.
Are you really having trouble understanding a bicycle wheel as a rotating disk? With rim brakes, the braking surfaces of that rotor are simply at the outermost edge of that large rotating disk. Don't let the hollow part in the middle fool you - those spokes are part of the disk. It might be easier to visualize a solid wheel instead of a spoked wheel - then it's easier to see that they are the exact same type of brake, differing only in execution and complexity, and of course the diameter of the disk.
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Both varieties use calipers to squeeze brake pads against a rotating disc, causing friction which slows down the rotation of that disk, to which the tire is attached.
Are you really having trouble understanding a bicycle wheel as a rotating disk? With rim brakes, the braking surfaces of that rotor are simply at the outermost edge of that large rotating disk. Don't let the hollow part in the middle fool you - those spokes are part of the disk. It might be easier to visualize a solid wheel instead of a spoked wheel - then it's easier to see that they are the exact same type of brake, differing only in execution and complexity, and of course the diameter of the disk.
Are you really having trouble understanding a bicycle wheel as a rotating disk? With rim brakes, the braking surfaces of that rotor are simply at the outermost edge of that large rotating disk. Don't let the hollow part in the middle fool you - those spokes are part of the disk. It might be easier to visualize a solid wheel instead of a spoked wheel - then it's easier to see that they are the exact same type of brake, differing only in execution and complexity, and of course the diameter of the disk.
There are several critically important differences, which is why in fact that behave differently.
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Got it.
All seriousness, yes I understand your argument. I get the concept that both are discs.
I just don't view it as a useful argument. When basically nobody views them as the same, the aren't the same...even if the way both perform uses the same mechanics.
Your argument is 20+ years old- it's been made since back when I barely rode bikes. It's hardly groundbreaking and doesn't really further the discussion.
I will try to eespind this way- so what? What really is your point? Both are discs, one is just larger. Ok then, so what? Why are you making that point? What is your goal of continually saying it?
Yeah, both rims and rotors are discs. That is meaningless. It's like arguing- 'remember, both are made of metal.' as if that means something.
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To recap, they are the same...except for design and execution.
Got it.
All seriousness, yes I understand your argument. I get the concept that both are discs.
I just don't view it as a useful argument. When basically nobody views them as the same, the aren't the same...even if the way both perform uses the same mechanics.
Your argument is 20+ years old- it's been made since back when I barely rode bikes. It's hardly groundbreaking and doesn't really further the discussion.
I will try to eespind this way- so what? What really is your point? Both are discs, one is just larger. Ok then, so what? Why are you making that point? What is your goal of continually saying it?
Yeah, both rims and rotors are discs. That is meaningless. It's like arguing- 'remember, both are made of metal.' as if that means something.
Got it.
All seriousness, yes I understand your argument. I get the concept that both are discs.
I just don't view it as a useful argument. When basically nobody views them as the same, the aren't the same...even if the way both perform uses the same mechanics.
Your argument is 20+ years old- it's been made since back when I barely rode bikes. It's hardly groundbreaking and doesn't really further the discussion.
I will try to eespind this way- so what? What really is your point? Both are discs, one is just larger. Ok then, so what? Why are you making that point? What is your goal of continually saying it?
Yeah, both rims and rotors are discs. That is meaningless. It's like arguing- 'remember, both are made of metal.' as if that means something.
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It’s always interesting watching the debates devolve as a new technology becomes accepted. For acceptance to succeed it is because the product or technology is superior overall than what is being replaced. The luddites crawl out of the woodwork hanging on by whatever tenuous threads of logic to defend the obviously dated and inferior equipment. Clipless pedals, Index shifting, Brifters, 700C Clinchers, Carbon, Low spoke count wheels, Tubeless, Electronic Shifting, GPS Bike computers, 2X drive systems and now disc brakes. Anyone who has spent any extended time on an quality disc brake bike especially in the mountains or in adverse conditions knows they function better and are nicer to use than rim brakes. This is the reason a vast majority of passionate cyclists prefer and enjoy disc brake bicycles. To each their own however defending a rim brake bike as just a larger disc but not taking into account the inherently flexible calipers and cable system is laughable. The advantages of hydraulic actuation and a rock solid caliper design is overwhelming.
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How, exactly, does a hub mounted disc brake give better “modulation” than a rim brake (i.e. a spoke mounted disc brake)? In my experience, I can pull on either a little or a lot and get the bike to slow a little or lock the rear wheel or, in extreme situations, spin me around the center of gravity. The only brake that I’ve ever used that didn’t have “modulation” was a hydraulic hub mounted disc. That one was full on or full off with no intermediate control…i.e. the opposite of well modulated.
I’ve seen people on line who claim that linear brakes are either on or off. I’ve never experienced anything like that in 30 year of using linear brakes.
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People throw the term “modulation” around with regard to bicycle all the time and don’t define it. From the dictionary definition
Another definition
How, exactly, does a hub mounted disc brake give better “modulation” than a rim brake (i.e. a spoke mounted disc brake)? In my experience, I can pull on either a little or a lot and get the bike to slow a little or lock the rear wheel or, in extreme situations, spin me around the center of gravity. The only brake that I’ve ever used that didn’t have “modulation” was a hydraulic hub mounted disc. That one was full on or full off with no intermediate control…i.e. the opposite of well modulated.
I’ve seen people on line who claim that linear brakes are either on or off. I’ve never experienced anything like that in 30 year of using linear brakes.
Another definition
How, exactly, does a hub mounted disc brake give better “modulation” than a rim brake (i.e. a spoke mounted disc brake)? In my experience, I can pull on either a little or a lot and get the bike to slow a little or lock the rear wheel or, in extreme situations, spin me around the center of gravity. The only brake that I’ve ever used that didn’t have “modulation” was a hydraulic hub mounted disc. That one was full on or full off with no intermediate control…i.e. the opposite of well modulated.
I’ve seen people on line who claim that linear brakes are either on or off. I’ve never experienced anything like that in 30 year of using linear brakes.
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The point is to dispel the notion that disk brakes are anything really different, and that they are inherently better. Remember that the OP asked about the future of rim brakes and whether he should migrate his stable of bikes to disk. The answer is that 1) No, we won't have any problem getting rim brakes in the future, and 2) There's no inherent benefit to disk brakes, and there are some downsides too.
The most that can be said is that disk brakes can be better, for some bikes under some circumstances. Remember that it was only last year that we had the first TDF winner with disk brakes. If they were "better" then racers would have switched to them long ago. It's only because of their sponsors that more teams are switching.
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In "every way"? That's obviously not true. Perhaps a little perspective would help. Here's a couple articles to get you started.
From this article (and supported by other opinions as well) - "And yet, on a bike optimized for performance, rim brakes often remain the better choice."
Myths Debunked: Disc Brakes DON’T Always Work Better Than Rim Brakes
Here's another good read.
Disc Brakes Vs Rim Brakes: A Pros and Cons List
From this article (and supported by other opinions as well) - "And yet, on a bike optimized for performance, rim brakes often remain the better choice."
Myths Debunked: Disc Brakes DON’T Always Work Better Than Rim Brakes
Here's another good read.
Disc Brakes Vs Rim Brakes: A Pros and Cons List
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#250
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I'm not continually saying it - I said it once, in the reply that began "As a reminder..." The rest of it has been me explaining it to you.
The point is to dispel the notion that disk brakes are anything really different, and that they are inherently better. Remember that the OP asked about the future of rim brakes and whether he should migrate his stable of bikes to disk. The answer is that 1) No, we won't have any problem getting rim brakes in the future, and 2) There's no inherent benefit to disk brakes, and there are some downsides too.
The most that can be said is that disk brakes can be better, for some bikes under some circumstances. Remember that it was only last year that we had the first TDF winner with disk brakes. If they were "better" then racers would have switched to them long ago. It's only because of their sponsors that more teams are switching.
The point is to dispel the notion that disk brakes are anything really different, and that they are inherently better. Remember that the OP asked about the future of rim brakes and whether he should migrate his stable of bikes to disk. The answer is that 1) No, we won't have any problem getting rim brakes in the future, and 2) There's no inherent benefit to disk brakes, and there are some downsides too.
The most that can be said is that disk brakes can be better, for some bikes under some circumstances. Remember that it was only last year that we had the first TDF winner with disk brakes. If they were "better" then racers would have switched to them long ago. It's only because of their sponsors that more teams are switching.
To highlight, rim brakes are also quite different. A cantilever brake is different from a vbrake which is different from a single pivot caliper which is different from a dual pivot caliper. <---4 different types of rim brakes, even though they all squeeze the rim to stop.
A cantilever brake is significantly different from a dual pivot caliper brake in setup, design, and use. Same goes for a vbrake compared to a cantilever brake.
We dont need vast changes in how a bike brakes for the brake systems to be different enough to recognize them as just that- different. We dont need to go from sticking a branch in the spokes to using a brake lever to call the brake systems different.
Cool- disc brakes and rim brakes both use compressing pads to slow a bike. They are the same in that way. The pads, caliper location, and item that is being rubbed are different, but yes- both use pads that compress. Thank you for the observation- we all recognize how both slow a bike down.