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School me on Shimano hardware

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School me on Shimano hardware

Old 06-25-22, 01:01 PM
  #76  
VegasJen
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir View Post
Maybe you should have started off with a more specific question regarding matching drivetrain component speeds?

Most here (who also frequent the Bicycle Mechanics) subforum have a working understanding of indexed shifting -- the general concept is not rocket surgery; no offense to any component engineer or mechanic here -- but of course there are subtle nuances (e.g., mixing components across different Shimano generations and/or groups, matching cable pull ratios, freehub width, etc.) that only certain members (e.g., cxwrench ) have readily at their command. Generally, at least in my experience, most of these members have freely offered their expert advice in response to specific questions.

Assuming you really (1) have years of experience in the engineering field (IMHO, the "the" should really be replaced by an "an", both semantically and to reflect how most engineers would regard their respective expertise), (2) have some mechanical aptitude, and (3) are not afraid to do your own work, could you not have made more progress toward articulating one or more specific questions about what you had hoped to do with your bikes or by upgrading / swapping their components? The fact that you did not bother to do so, and instead posed a broad, open-ended, and rambling series of "questions" while requesting an entire body of "real world knowledge and experience", has been interpreted by some as laziness.

Yes, this is an interactive forum, and interaction involves give and take.
Far enough.

I'm still new enough at this that I'm only now learning how different the generations of the same model can be. I would have had to have more knowledge to even know to ask a more specific question. Maybe one of the resident experts could make a little project of identifying and distinguishing various models and generations and we could get a sticky. I did actually look for just such a resource before I posted this thread.
Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
Writing about the "subtle nuances" is going to be some work but she doesn't have the basic knowledge (*) to use it. She probably isn't really asking for this information (*) So, it would be wasted effort to provide it. At this point (maybe, any point), she should avoid the issues of "nuance" and keep things simple.

* She thinks it might be "easy peasy" to swap 8 and 10 speed cassettes.
Very true. I have no idea what it entails. I don't think it's "easy peasy". I'm asking if it is. And I'm sure for some here it is. But we all start somewhere.
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Old 06-25-22, 01:20 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
I'm still new enough at this that I'm only now learning how different the generations of the same model can be. I would have had to have more knowledge to even know to ask a more specific question. Maybe one of the resident experts could make a little project of identifying and distinguishing various models and generations and we could get a sticky. I did actually look for just such a resource before I posted this thread.
Again, this information is easy to find (and, yes, the Shimano site is not the best place).

Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
Very true. I have no idea what it entails. I don't think it's "easy peasy". I'm asking if it is. And I'm sure for some here it is.
If you "spent a lot of years working in the engineering field", I have no idea how you would have thought “a new platform for you” would be "easy peasy". That makes no sense.

You should assume that things you don't know anything about are going to be harder.

Asking to be "schooled" by asking vague, open-ended questions is kind of dismissive of the expertise of the people you expect to get answers from!

Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
But we all start somewhere.
You aren't really starting in the right way (that's the point).

Your vague, open-ended questions are asking people to spend a lot of time writing a "brain dump" of information you can't use or aren't really interested. It's a waste of people's time.

You should ask fewer more-specific questions. Those take less effort to answer and it's easier to provide information that you can use.

It is often helpful for you to get answers if you show some competence at trying to doing some research on your own.

Last edited by njkayaker; 06-25-22 at 01:38 PM.
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Old 06-25-22, 01:29 PM
  #78  
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I find it interesting how much experience is here yet so few are interested in making this place a resource for newcomers to learn.
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Old 06-25-22, 01:45 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
I find it interesting how much experience is here yet so few are interested in making this place a resource for newcomers to learn.
You definitely are not getting it.

What you are asking for is too much work (for no compensation). It's also information that would be useless for "newcomers" (novices?).

(The appropriate advice to "newcomers" would be to avoid this complexity entirely.)

Anyway, this is not really a resource for basic information. There's a whole freaking internet for that.

It doesn't seem you realize it but you come across as kinda lazy, kinda demanding, kinda entitled, and kinda dismissive of people you want to help you.

Last edited by njkayaker; 06-25-22 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 06-25-22, 01:53 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
Typical 'engineer'. As a mechanic hearing someone say "I'm an engineer..." makes my skin crawl. I always want to reply with "Really? How cool is it driving the train?"
”Working in the engineering field” is a transparent way of suggesting expertise that doesn’t exist. Sort of like stating “I went to Harvard” when I actually just visited campus for a football game.

Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
I find it interesting how much experience is here yet so few are interested in making this place a resource for newcomers to learn.
Some long-time (and frequently very helpful) posters have offered you suggestions for getting more useful info from the forum…and you are choosing to completely ignore it. You may want to reassess your approach.
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Old 06-25-22, 02:14 PM
  #81  
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OK. Thanks to those of you that provided information.
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Old 06-25-22, 03:48 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
I'm still new enough at this that I'm only now learning how different the generations of the same model can be. I would have had to have more knowledge to even know to ask a more specific question.
When I suggested starting with a more specific question, I did not mean to specifics regarding bicycle components or its nuances, which would require more knowledge. Rather, ask a more specific question about what you were hoping to accomplish with your bicycle, which surely you could have articulated with your work experience in "the" engineering field and mechanical aptitude. For example: "Is it possible to upgrade a [make] [model] bicycle to add more gears for climbing?" Others would ask you some clarification questions, e.g., re: its current setup and components, and respond accordingly, then you could have got somewhere with more useful information.

Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
Maybe one of the resident experts could make a little project of identifying and distinguishing various models and generations and we could get a sticky. I did actually look for just such a resource before I posted this thread.
Are you seriously suggesting one of the resident experts here to take on a "little project" to identify and distinguish, for example, the five most recent generations of Shimano drivetrains, 10 speed and above, for Claris, Sora, 105, Ultegra and Dura-Ace? Why? Shimano has done it here:

[Claris] 100 PRODUCTS HISTORY | SHIMANO
[Sora] 100 PRODUCTS HISTORY | SHIMANO
[105] 100 PRODUCTS HISTORY | SHIMANO
[Ultegra] 100 PRODUCTS HISTORY - SHIMANO ULTEGRA | SHIMANO
[Dura-Ace] 100 PRODUCTS HISTORY - DURA-ACE | SHIMANO

Again, I reiterate my suggestion for you to ask one or more specific questions that would help you solve a particular problem or accomplish a particular goal, rather than asking for the collective knowledge base of everyone here and then expect to (be able to) pick and choose the relevant portions for whatever it is you want to do with that. In the meantime, here are some good technical resources.

Sheldon Brown-Bicycle Technical Information

Technical FAQ - VeloNews.com

BikeGremlin | Mostly harmless ™

Last edited by SoSmellyAir; 06-25-22 at 05:38 PM. Reason: To add Bike Gremlin
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Old 06-25-22, 04:19 PM
  #83  
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After all these posts and pages, I'm just not getting VegasJen the OP at all . VegasJen says they "have a small collection of road bikes with a variety of Shimano parts including Integra, Claris and Sora." How the heck did they acquire a small collection without any knowledge of subject? And all low end. Like they're all rescue bikes or found on garbage day down the street lol? How the heck are they incapable of Googling something like "compare Sora vs Claris"? Asking questions like "is only difference how many speeds? Really?

Seems to me it's more a troll baiting us all. I'm done caring or helping. If not, easier to show them how to fish than feed them. Just Google "compare Sora vs Claris", "Shimano group hierarchy", etc.

That's it I'm out.
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Old 06-25-22, 04:45 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
I find it interesting how much experience is here yet so few are interested in making this place a resource for newcomers to learn.
Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
OK. Thanks to those of you that provided information.
You are welcome.

There is a wealth of experience in this place. There is also some snark. Stick around, if you don’t have a thin skin I think you will learn to like it.
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Old 06-25-22, 05:01 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by datlas View Post
You are welcome.

There is a wealth of experience in this place. There is also some snark. Stick around, if you don’t have a thin skin I think you will learn to like it.
I appreciate your posts. You have been one of the members who has tried to legitimately help. In spite of the snarky ones, I have actually learned quite a lot from several of you. I do have a thick skin. This place is nothing compared to other forums I'm on. But I have little patience for some people who want to pretend they're helping when all they say, "just google it."
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Old 06-25-22, 05:26 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
The appropriate advice to "newcomers" would be to avoid this complexity entirely.
Maybe. But then kids these days would just ask you what app to download for that.
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Old 06-25-22, 07:57 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
I appreciate your posts. You have been one of the members who has tried to legitimately help. In spite of the snarky ones, I have actually learned quite a lot from several of you. I do have a thick skin. This place is nothing compared to other forums I'm on. But I have little patience for some people who want to pretend they're helping when all they say, "just google it."
You can get a whole lot more information a whole lot quicker by doing just that.
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Old 06-26-22, 05:53 AM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
I find it interesting how much experience is here yet so few are interested in making this place a resource for newcomers to learn.
I too am a novice. With that said I think the need to know about the intricacies of Shimano components goes with one's personal needs.
For example, I was looking to add some climbing gears to my older 10 speed Ultegra 6600 group set equipped crit bike.
I wanted to switch to a 11-32 cassette but NOS medium or long cage DR's were not available and the used ones on ebay were beat up or just hard to find.

The solution? Went to my LBS and talked with the owner. He recommended a 46-30 GRX crankset and damn, it works flawlessly. The clamp style FDR was adjusted and I now have a good climbing bike with a 46/30 and 12-27 ratio.

Another thing. Shimano no longer makes a 12-27 10 speed cassette so I had to buy a SRAM cassette with the same ratio.

My point is, "the devil is in the details."

No one person has all this nailed down unless they are working on thousands of bikes because this is not in the Shimano manuals.
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Old 06-26-22, 07:14 AM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by CAT7RDR View Post
I too am a novice. With that said I think the need to know about the intricacies of Shimano components goes with one's personal needs.
For example, I was looking to add some climbing gears to my older 10 speed Ultegra 6600 group set equipped crit bike.
I wanted to switch to a 11-32 cassette but NOS medium or long cage DR's were not available and the used ones on ebay were beat up or just hard to find.

The solution? Went to my LBS and talked with the owner. He recommended a 46-30 GRX crankset and damn, it works flawlessly. The clamp style FDR was adjusted and I now have a good climbing bike with a 46/30 and 12-27 ratio.

Another thing. Shimano no longer makes a 12-27 10 speed cassette so I had to buy a SRAM cassette with the same ratio.

My point is, "the devil is in the details."

No one person has all this nailed down unless they are working on thousands of bikes because this is not in the Shimano manuals.
I’m sure your shop is good, but Shimano has actually been very explicit about this. In fact, you don’t even have to refer to the manuals – it’s in the marketing literature:

https://bike.shimano.com/content/dam...20CONSUMER.pdf

https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/infor...ad-compon.html
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Old 06-26-22, 08:05 AM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
I’m sure your shop is good, but Shimano has actually been very explicit about this. In fact, you don’t even have to refer to the manuals – it’s in the marketing literature:

https://bike.shimano.com/content/dam...20CONSUMER.pdf

https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/infor...ad-compon.html
I think this may be an instance where the Shimano documentation does not tell the full story. Second article linked above says:

GRX Crank and Front Derailleur

Shimano GRX cranksets feature a +2.5mm outboard chainline, which improves rear tire clearance, making room for wide gravel tires. This also means that the GRX crank’s Q-Factor is +2.5mm wider on each side compared to Shimano road cranks. Due to the wider crank and chainline, GRX cranks must be used in conjunction with a GRX front derailleur for 2x11 and 2x10 drivetrains.

But ​​​​CAT7RDR seems to have got it working with a clamp on road derailleur?
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Old 06-26-22, 09:20 AM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir View Post
I think this may be an instance where the Shimano documentation does not tell the full story. Second article linked above says:

GRX Crank and Front Derailleur

Shimano GRX cranksets feature a +2.5mm outboard chainline, which improves rear tire clearance, making room for wide gravel tires. This also means that the GRX crank’s Q-Factor is +2.5mm wider on each side compared to Shimano road cranks. Due to the wider crank and chainline, GRX cranks must be used in conjunction with a GRX front derailleur for 2x11 and 2x10 drivetrains.

But ​​​​CAT7RDR seems to have got it working with a clamp on road derailleur?
Sure. Any decent shop would try the existing fd first. Mine tried the GRX 48-31 crankset with my Ultegra fd and found it didn’t work, and so had to use the GRX 11sp fd. But given that the poster’s bike is Shimano 10sp, and his new cranks are Shimano 10sp, it’s a bit of a stretch to claim that their compatibility is some sort of mystery.
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Old 06-26-22, 09:26 AM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
Sure. Any decent shop would try the existing fd first. Mine tried the GRX 48-31 crankset with my Ultegra fd and found it didn’t work, and so had to use the GRX 11sp fd.
Mine did (11 speed Di2). I am curious about the differences. In my case, I have a clamp-on front derailleur mount and a constant-diameter (steel) seat tube, so there were no limits to sliding it up and down. Properly positioned, the cage could easily be adjusted via the H-limit screw to allow for a 46/30T GRX crankset (which is a more extreme case than 48/31T).

Any ideas what the relevant differences might be? The two I mentioned (sliding clamp vs. braise-on, and Di2 vs. mechanical) are my guesses, but I haven't done the control.
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Old 06-26-22, 09:35 AM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by Polaris OBark View Post
Mine did (11 speed Di2). I am curious about the differences. In my case, I have a clamp-on front derailleur mount and a constant-diameter (steel) seat tube, so there were no limits to sliding it up and down. Properly positioned, the cage could easily be adjusted via the H-limit screw to allow for a 46/30T GRX crankset (which is a more extreme case than 48/31T).

Any ideas what the relevant differences might be? The two I mentioned (sliding clamp vs. braise-on, and Di2 vs. mechanical) are my guesses, but I haven't done the control.
Hmm. Mine was also a clamp-on Ultegra Di2 11sp fd. Shop said they couldn’t get it adjusted quite right with the 48-31 crankset. Perhaps the cassette makes a difference? I was running an 11-34 at the time, which is pushing the limits. That, along with the one tooth difference in the chainrings, could be factors…?

But the real point is that any good shop would’ve tried it first with the existing fd. There’s no reason not to.

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Old 06-26-22, 10:19 AM
  #94  
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I have two wheel-sets. One has an 11-34T and the other and 11-36T. Mine was DIY, and I previously had a White Industries 46/30T crankset on there, so I was fairly confident I could make it work.

Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
any good shop would’ve tried it first with the existing fd. There’s no reason not to.
Shimano says don't do it, and bike shops have to be cautious in those situations. (A more cynical motive might be to sell more Di2 parts.)

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Old 06-26-22, 11:06 AM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
Sure. Any decent shop would try the existing fd first.
Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
But the real point is that any good shop would’ve tried it first with the existing fd. There’s no reason not to.
Of course. Once one does decide to buy a GRX crank, one might as well first try it with one's existing road FD. My point was that Shimano's own published information may deter one from trying a GRX crankset with an otherwise road drivetrain to achieve lower gearing to begin with as CAT7RDR's LBS did.
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Old 06-26-22, 04:47 PM
  #96  
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48/31 sorta breaks rule of 16 for cranks.

Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
Hmm. Mine was also a clamp-on Ultegra Di2 11sp fd. Shop said they couldn’t get it adjusted quite right with the 48-31 crankset. Perhaps the cassette makes a difference? I was running an 11-34 at the time, which is pushing the limits. That, along with the one tooth difference in the chainrings, could be factors…?

But the real point is that any good shop would’ve tried it first with the existing fd. There’s no reason not to.
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Old 06-26-22, 04:58 PM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by Recycled Cycler View Post
48/31 sorta breaks rule of 16 for cranks.
It does, but Shimano says it works better than the 46/30T. I don't understand the explanation, and I wanted 30T, so I went with the less expensive option.
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Old 06-27-22, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
Absolutely hate those commie bastards. Will not use google for anything.
So you're one of those "everything I don't like is communism" types

Google is so synonymous with unregulated capitalism that at this point it's a meme.

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Old 06-27-22, 04:50 AM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
Absolutely hate those commie bastards. Will not use google for anything.
There are other search engines you could use. Researching basic stuff like this on the internet is the best way to start. Forums tend to suit specific questions better.
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Old 06-27-22, 05:30 AM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by Recycled Cycler View Post
After all these posts and pages, I'm just not getting VegasJen the OP at all . VegasJen says they "have a small collection of road bikes with a variety of Shimano parts including Integra, Claris and Sora." How the heck did they acquire a small collection without any knowledge of subject? And all low end. Like they're all rescue bikes or found on garbage day down the street lol? How the heck are they incapable of Googling something like "compare Sora vs Claris"? Asking questions like "is only difference how many speeds? Really?

Seems to me it's more a troll baiting us all. I'm done caring or helping. If not, easier to show them how to fish than feed them. Just Google "compare Sora vs Claris", "Shimano group hierarchy", etc.

That's it I'm out.
Someone gets it.
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