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pulling up on pedal stroke

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pulling up on pedal stroke

Old 05-31-16, 03:41 PM
  #26  
Grumpy McTrumpy
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I'd bet that most cleat pullouts are due to ankle turning and not due to pulling up too hard.
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Old 05-31-16, 04:28 PM
  #27  
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Kid and coach and wife all wear cleats till they are worn and pull out. Only recently has my son started checking before races.
I check my wife's as I know she won't.
But the other two...they pull out.
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Old 05-31-16, 05:45 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Grumpy McTrumpy
I'd bet that most cleat pullouts are due to ankle turning and not due to pulling up too hard.
Yep. This is my theory, too.
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Old 06-01-16, 01:46 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Grumpy McTrumpy
I'd bet that most cleat pullouts are due to ankle turning and not due to pulling up too hard.
My SPD pedals have about 4-6° float. I doubt I'm twisting them out. Perhaps tilting the pedal and frame?

Nonetheless, they are very sensitive to tension adjustment. Inevitably I get used pedals with the tension set to the minimum. The first thing I do is set them to the point where I have to push them in hard, otherwise I get too many pull-outs.

Anyway, perhaps hard pulling and tilting and not twisting.
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Old 06-01-16, 03:26 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Grumpy McTrumpy
I'd bet that most cleat pullouts are due to ankle turning and not due to pulling up too hard.
For sure this is me. On hard upstrokes, even seated, my heel will hit the chainstay, so it's a twisting thing. I easily pull out of virtually any Keo pedal - only the old Carbon Keo holds me in, and I think it's because it doesn't have the metal plate to ease clipping out. The Keo Max, with the metal plate, is as bad for me as a low tension Keo Classic or Keo Sprint. I tried other people's Blades and they were just as easy for me to unclip. I have many sets of Keo pedals that I no longer use, some are basically brand new.

With the Exustar pedals I have now it's holds my foot totally securely and I can unclip when I want to unclip. I have the PR2? It's the Keo Max lookalike.

Having tried to pull up to get a cleat out there's no way my hamstring is that strong. It's got to be many hundreds of pounds of force, and there'd have to be some massive cleat or pedal-bit-that-holds-the-cleat flex. Broken cleat, okay, I understand.
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Old 06-01-16, 03:28 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Racer Ex
Somewhere here there's a race report about doing Devil's Punchbowl in loafers. And doing Stage 1 at Gila with a missing cleat.

Sitting, not much difference at tempo. Standing and sprinting or climbing, big difference in efficiency. Which is why when you see these "scientific studies" you need to actually look at the protocol. Do we always ride a bike sitting riding at tempo? Obviously not. Did they see what happens on the outliers of the cadence spectrum? Nope. How about standing starts? Nope.

There are some obvious "real world" examples where pulling up on the pedal adds power. Think about the circumstances where people pull out of cleats...

^^^^^ what that guy said. Independently confirmed by me, because I ride flats and sneakers on my mtb... seriously guys this is not a complicated subject.

And anyway, this subject has been studied to death... remember those one-legged cranks that were being sold a few years ago? See them around lately? No? hmmm
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Old 06-02-16, 12:41 PM
  #32  
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There are a lot of bad data and bad studies about pulling up. At least some people pull up some of the time. Even "unweighting" might be considered pulling up as one isn't pushing the dead weight of the legs.

Looking at the GCN videos, I concluded that:
  • The effort with flats can be similar to that with cleats (steady state, for some riders).
  • There isn't much of a difference between sitting vs mixed standing/sitting. At times it can be more comfortable to change it up a bit.
Unfortunately the GCN videos aren't hugely scientific. So, they wouldn't necessarily apply to all riders, nor tease out very small performance differences. They are also doing steady state riding, not actual road riding which can be full of small accelerations, whether it is starting at a stop light, or cresting a small hill, not big enough to bother changing gears.

One also has efficiency vs raw power.

It may well be more efficient to do a 100 mile ride mostly without pulling up much.

But, there are those moments when one is cranking out over 500W, more than is "sustainable", and one must use every muscle available. Arms, legs, pushing down, pulling up. Or, perhaps one's gearing is good for 99% of one's riding, but there is that last 1% which takes a little extra effort.

Much of what one does is cardiovascular limited. So, one might be able to crank out that short sprint, but beyond that, one is limited by how much blood and oxygen one can get to the tissues. Which means for any steady state riding, it won't make a big difference which sub-maximal muscle groups one uses. But, that anaerobic sprinting may take all the muscles.

Cadence is an issue, but it is not as much about the speed of crank rotation, but rather the force one puts into the pedals. For some fixed speed/effort, as cadence drops, the amount of force being put into the pedals naturally increases, up to the point where one lifts oneself off of the saddle (standing). Once standing, one can't really push down harder. So, it is the opposite. Pull up with the opposite leg (which also increases downward force on the pushing leg).

Anyway, efficient? I don't know. Effective at times, yes. At least for my riding style.
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Old 06-02-16, 02:48 PM
  #33  
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So which pedaling styles are suitable for which situations?

My technique right now is to engage the quads early at 12 oclock and use the calves more at 6, to minimize dead spots. During hard efforts, i try to accentuate this technique. On climbs, i tend to mash more, and for brief, hard accelerations, i engage the upstroke, whereas for longer sprints >10s, ill only pull up for maybe 2 or 3 sec.

What can be improved?
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Old 06-03-16, 06:14 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by spectastic
So which pedaling styles are suitable for which situations?

My technique right now is to engage the quads early at 12 oclock and use the calves more at 6, to minimize dead spots. During hard efforts, i try to accentuate this technique. On climbs, i tend to mash more, and for brief, hard accelerations, i engage the upstroke, whereas for longer sprints >10s, ill only pull up for maybe 2 or 3 sec.

What can be improved?
When do you engage your glutes? That's the strongest muscle in your lower body.

From what my PT had me doing, it was glutes from 12-6, hamstrings from 3-9, hip flexors from 6 to 12, and quads from 9-3.
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Old 06-03-16, 09:00 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by spectastic
So which pedaling styles are suitable for which situations?

My technique right now is to engage the quads early at 12 oclock and use the calves more at 6, to minimize dead spots. During hard efforts, i try to accentuate this technique. On climbs, i tend to mash more, and for brief, hard accelerations, i engage the upstroke, whereas for longer sprints >10s, ill only pull up for maybe 2 or 3 sec.

What can be improved?
This is overthinking it. It's just pushing the pedals. Do what works. The pedal stroke is ridiculously overanalyzed. It's one of the most prescribed motions in sports. Keep it smooth. That's about it.
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Old 06-03-16, 09:04 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by grolby
This is overthinking it. It's just pushing the pedals. Do what works. The pedal stroke is ridiculously overanalyzed. It's one of the most prescribed motions in sports. Keep it smooth. That's about it.
paralysis thru analysis
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Old 06-03-16, 10:31 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by grolby
This is overthinking it. It's just pushing the pedals. Do what works. The pedal stroke is ridiculously overanalyzed. It's one of the most prescribed motions in sports. Keep it smooth. That's about it.
+1

I have a team mate who has the worst pedaling form I've ever seen, but he seems to get away with it.

At training camp one of our guys tried to get Fast Freddy to talk to the guy about it, but Freddy said if it works for him then it works for him.

I still think he's losing a lot of efficiently by always pedaling squares...
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Old 06-03-16, 12:24 PM
  #38  
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Pulling up...I think one tests to see which works. I do 80 meter full power standing starts and measure the time. I try different approaches. Time does not over analyze or lie.

One could do the same for road sprinting by setting up a protocol and test.

With respect to other efforts such as tempo and threshold, I think one does what feels the best. IMO, the best way to train pedal stroke is to ride rollers. Rollers cause one to pedal in a fashion not to ride off the rollers. I find the more I relax on the rollers and keep my back flat with a light touch on the handlebar, the better I perform. This seems to translate to the road and track.

I find after a track session with motor work, that the next day on the road anything seems possible and the chain seems to go away. Note...this happens when the prescription at the track is like Goldilocks's porridge - just right. Too much effort at the track and I am cooked the next day. For me, track sessions improve my road biking. Maybe that is due to the high cadence fixed gear work where one has to be smooth or bounce in the saddle. YMMV.

I suspect one of gsteinb's competitive advantages is his large amount of roller work in addition to being a highly gifted and talented athlete.

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Old 06-03-16, 02:50 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by mattm
+1

I have a team mate who has the worst pedaling form I've ever seen, but he seems to get away with it.

At training camp one of our guys tried to get Fast Freddy to talk to the guy about it, but Freddy said if it works for him then it works for him.

I still think he's losing a lot of efficiently by always pedaling squares...
Is he faster than you?
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Old 06-03-16, 05:59 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Hermes
Pulling up...I think one tests to see which works. I do 80 meter full power standing starts and measure the time. I try different approaches. Time does not over analyze or lie.

One could do the same for road sprinting by setting up a protocol and test.
Also note, a sprint when one's fresh may be very different from sprinting after a 100 mile race. Or even after a shorter hard effort.

I find pulling up is a way to add power when my legs don't want to go down anymore.
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Old 06-04-16, 12:32 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by mattm
...

I still think he's losing a lot of efficiently by always pedaling squares...
I think he is losing efficiency, but I'm open to he is also getting more power. This is what that Cyber Cycling coach was stating. That basically 20% of arc is where you get 80% (just rough %) of power. So stomp/square pedal on that part and rest the other. It is not as efficient as a smooth circle. But like standing, or pulling on bars in a sprint is also not as efficient, it does up the power at cost.
So with junior we used to have him be as efficient as possible and run up his HR. Last few years he can't get his HR up by pedaling smoothly. My conclusion (no VO2max test available on the bike) was he had HR / aerobic to burn and could use some other muscles/methods. The new method says stomp (220X/min) and let the HR go. The only good execution of this for him was VOS TT. I would have never had him toy with this as a beginner, or if he was pegging his HR, but he is in a place where he can play around and see what works best for him the next few years.
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Old 06-04-16, 08:11 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
Is he faster than you?
His power is way higher than mine (he's bigger too tho), but results-wise he's not faster than me no.
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Old 06-04-16, 08:17 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by mattm
His power is way higher than mine (he's bigger too tho), but results-wise he's not faster than me no.
which? Lockwood?
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