Dutch perspective on cycling in the US
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The problem with the Dutchman's perspective (and yours) is that it's based on a limited view of what cycling is about. This is not a homogenous sport, folks cycle all kinds of ways and for all kinds of reasons, and just about the only thing cyclists have in common is that they ride two wheeled vehicles (and even that isn't true).
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I repeat, cycling is not a homogenous activity, cyclists ride many ways and for many reasons. Some cyclists ride multiple bikes, for multiple reasons, and yes, dress differently depending on circumstances.
No style of riding is better or worse than any other, which is my objection to the Dutchman's video. He looks disdainfully of people who have a different style of riding to what he sees at home in his cyclists paradise.
BTW- this kind of thing has been going on for as long as I've been involved in the sport, (since the mid sixties) and I'm sure before that.
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You're making my point. Search all you want and you won't find me being critical of how or why anybody rides.
I repeat, cycling is not a homogenous activity, cyclists ride many ways and for many reasons. Some cyclists ride multiple bikes, for multiple reasons, and yes, dress differently depending on circumstances.
No style of riding is better or worse than any other, which is my objection to the Dutchman's video. He looks disdainfully of people who have a different style of riding to what he sees at home in his cyclists paradise.
BTW- this kind of thing has been going on for as long as I've been involved in the sport, (since the mid sixties) and I'm sure before that.
I repeat, cycling is not a homogenous activity, cyclists ride many ways and for many reasons. Some cyclists ride multiple bikes, for multiple reasons, and yes, dress differently depending on circumstances.
No style of riding is better or worse than any other, which is my objection to the Dutchman's video. He looks disdainfully of people who have a different style of riding to what he sees at home in his cyclists paradise.
BTW- this kind of thing has been going on for as long as I've been involved in the sport, (since the mid sixties) and I'm sure before that.
Maybe some ways might be better than others, and everyone has a different opinion about that but the Dutchman didn't get into that. He wasn't making any judgments. He leaves it up to you to decide for yourself. The Dutch probably know more about cycling as a form of mass transportation than anybody else. Personally I think it would be extremely arrogant of us to think that we can't learn anything about it from them.
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Your "obvious commuter" comment is just prejudice. WTH is an "obvious commuter"?
The images of cyclists on williams, vancouver, ladd's addition, stark and couch were taken during peak commuting hours. Just about everyone was commuting.
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This pure bull. No one here has said that a dutch is not appropriate for commuting. I personally think a dutch omafiets, a bent, a folder, a fixie, a cruiser, a hybrid, a roadster, a cross bike, a 1950s french proteur, or a bloody fracking carbon fiber "crotch rocket" can all be perfectly functional "city bikes". One of the things I like about cycling (and cycling-specific clothing) in the USA is that both are far more heterogeneous than in holland or denmark. This is a GOOD thing.
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By the way, I am still learning from other cyclists. Some things have changed over the years, many for the better. Who knows, maybe I'll ride something other than steel someday. Some wonderful things are rediscovered and then improved on, which warms my old stone heart; I do enjoy the much improved internal gear hubs that have become available in recent years. Some mistakes from the past are being discarded, which is great, but some of our most important victories in terms of rights to the public roadways are in danger of being rolled back and I find these "Dutch Perspectives" are being used to help bring that about.
Cycling is a "big tent" activity with incredibly varied participants, goals and values. The Dutch approach is but a small corner of that tent. It does concern me that so much attention is given over to their clothing choices and concrete utilization when the key difference between their land and ours seems to be strict liability and traffic enforcement. I guess it's easier to "see" the concrete and clothing than to observe the motorist behavior at their intersections and compare it to what would happen if such were built here.
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What do you know about cycling as a form of mass transportation? I'm guessing not very much. Not just merely transportation for the 1% of hardcore bikers, which is the only demographic that is willing to ride their bikes everyday on our very non-bike-friendly streets. The biking infrastructure in North America is pretty terrible 98% of the time, no question. But even so I think the Dutch can still learn from us. They can learn what not to do.
What do you expect a Dutch person to say about it? That the US is a cycling nirvana and we are perfect in every way? That we are absolutely flawless and everyone else in the world should kiss our butt? Now that would be dishonest if not laughable. I'm surprised his comments were not even more critical because I thought it was fairly mild.
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Most laws that "require" cyclists to ride right or to use the bike lane allow cyclists to use their best judgement regarding when it is actually safe to do so,i.e., when it is practicable. There are many, many things that might make riding right or using a bike lane not practicable, to the extent that being practicable is often far less common than not being practicable. Such laws typically don't actually require cyclists to leave the lane.
This is probably the biggest distinction, other than riding posture and clothing, between the Dutch perspective and what many of its opponents in the U.S. are fighting for. The Dutch love their segregated infrastructure and have set up social infrastructure to deal with its weaknesses. Absent those social constructs, we want our full rights to the roadway and prefer non-doorzone bike lanes to sidepaths.
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Before people get the impression that bikes in NL are always on separate bike paths, here are a few examples in Amsterdam:
https://goo.gl/maps/Sg5YW
https://goo.gl/maps/QkRY4
https://goo.gl/maps/Z2AVu
https://goo.gl/maps/STCyx
So why is it nice to ride around on a bike in Dutch traffic, because the city center roads are build to encourage low speeds for cars and because of the mentality that a bicycle is an accepted member of traffic.
I am now living in Maryland and what also doesn't help is that most people driving around got their drivers license, probably at the age of 16, and only had to show that they could drive around an empty parking lot with traffic cones and stop signs.
https://goo.gl/maps/Sg5YW
https://goo.gl/maps/QkRY4
https://goo.gl/maps/Z2AVu
https://goo.gl/maps/STCyx
So why is it nice to ride around on a bike in Dutch traffic, because the city center roads are build to encourage low speeds for cars and because of the mentality that a bicycle is an accepted member of traffic.
I am now living in Maryland and what also doesn't help is that most people driving around got their drivers license, probably at the age of 16, and only had to show that they could drive around an empty parking lot with traffic cones and stop signs.
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The main thing about handlebars is the width. Wider handlebars provide greater comfort and steering control. Road bikes have very narrow handlebars. Doesn't matter if you're in the drop position or the raised position; the width of the handlebar is the same. You're sacrificing some comfort and control on the road bike for greater aerodynamics. The closer your arms are together the less wind resistance you have. Flat handlebars are more comfortable because they are wider. Same with tires. Wider non-knobby tires provide more suspension and greater comfort than narrow road bike tires.
However, I agree that wider seats do not provide greater comfort. That is a common misconception. Narrower is better, when it comes to bike seats. Wider seats rub against the inside of your legs and interfere with pedaling motion, which tires you out more quickly. You also want the seat to be perfectly level. But I guess that's the advantage of buying from a bike shop as opposed to buying used or from a department store. The bike shop people are generally very knowledgeable and can tell you these things.
However, I agree that wider seats do not provide greater comfort. That is a common misconception. Narrower is better, when it comes to bike seats. Wider seats rub against the inside of your legs and interfere with pedaling motion, which tires you out more quickly. You also want the seat to be perfectly level. But I guess that's the advantage of buying from a bike shop as opposed to buying used or from a department store. The bike shop people are generally very knowledgeable and can tell you these things.
Do you realize that you can put wide handlebars on a road bike and that it would still be a road bike?
I can't respond to this stuff.
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Anyway you can see why people feel they need to use giant seats and whatnot. They are sitting on their bikes as if they were barstools.
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I can't imagine riding any kind of bike for that long. I think after a hundred miles you're going to be sore no matter what kind of bike you're on. I don't know how they do it in the Tour de France. They're obviously highly-conditioned but still, doing a hundred miles a day, everyday for many days on a road bike (or any bike) almost seems like a form of torture.
Drop bars and postures comfortable or appropriate for racing or long distance rides in the country are not necessarily very comfortable for the city traffic that city bicyclists do every day for distances that for the most part are not very far (or they wouldn't be ridden at all); riding that calls for having to keep the head up and vision forward in a position to see traffic conditions beyond the front wheel (or the cyclist ahead in the peloton). Presumably the areo cyclist in the city can put hands on the upper bar when the strain on neck, shoulders, arms and wrist are excessive and lose contact with the brake levers, a sad compromise not needed on a bike set up for city bike riding rather than set up for training rides with the club on the weekends.
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This points out what should be obvious, but instead is oblivious to those discussing what is comfortable on 100 mile rides, the Tour de France or up and down mountain sides; i.e. most cyclists cycling in metropolitan areas are not riding a 100 miles daily, are not in a competitive event, nor climbing up and down mountain sides.
Drop bars and postures comfortable or appropriate for racing or long distance rides in the country are not necessarily very comfortable for the city traffic that city bicyclists do every day for distances that for the most part are not very far (or they wouldn't be ridden at all); ....
Drop bars and postures comfortable or appropriate for racing or long distance rides in the country are not necessarily very comfortable for the city traffic that city bicyclists do every day for distances that for the most part are not very far (or they wouldn't be ridden at all); ....
Getting around the city isn't just about vision. You might also want the ability to maneuver quickly, deftly. To turn quickly, the bolt upright position is not the best position, to put it mildly. For control purposes it helps to be off the saddle, sort of floating over the bike with the ability to shift the weight forward or back. In fact there is really no other way to maneuver a bike well when it comes to 'panic stops' or quick turns. There are a lot of good reasons not to ride around sitting straight upright on the seat.
Presumably the areo cyclist in the city can put hands on the upper bar when the strain on neck, shoulders, arms and wrist are excessive and lose contact with the brake levers, a sad compromise not needed on a bike set up for city bike riding rather than set up for training rides with the club on the weekends.
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...The Dutch approach is but a small corner of that tent. It does concern me that so much attention is given over to their clothing choices and concrete utilization when the key difference between their land and ours seems to be strict liability and traffic enforcement. ...
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Have you seen the chrome yalta and night? The fabric is black by day but impregnated with greyish reflective threads that light up like a mofo at night.
https://www.chromeindustries.com/bags/yalta-night
https://www.chromeindustries.com/bags/citizen-night
I've never looked better on my nude carbon fiber transportation bikes!
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I've never looked better on my nude carbon fiber transportation bikes!
I remember when Chrome started, making bags one by one in an old warehouse space in Denver. Though the bags were durable I never did get completely on board with their product due to their proprietary seatbelt latch that was always digging into my collarbone when the bag was loaded.
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I digress, my point is you can do a lot of tweaking to change your position on the bike, regardless of whether it is road or city. Wide handlebars included. Particularly touring bikes tend to have all the same attachment features city bikes do.
Like anywhere else in America, speeding here is pretty common because of nice, wide, open streets. Except on a few streets in town. The main one is a 30mph street... when it is empty, people might go 35. When it is even mildly busy, most people are actually going under the speed limit (around 25mph), even though they have the ability to go much faster. Why? Because that's what feels comfortable for people on that street. You have a street with a narrow driving area and lots of parallel parking and many small businesses with a narrow footprint along the street. There are also planters along the side of the street where there is no parking, and a center-left turn lane. This means there is constantly pedestrian traffic, car doors opening, and narrow lane of travel. All this leads to drivers feeling, all on their own, like they're driving too fast of they are driving over 30mph. It's uncomfortable for drivers, so they don't do it.
There is no bike lane on this particular street, but as traffic moves so slowly, it isn't a problem (we have lots of bikelanes elsewhere that are really useful).
That's the key to good road design. If you're relying on a sign to get people to act how you want them to, you've already lost.
Last edited by sudo bike; 07-07-13 at 02:03 AM.
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Lots of people ride road bikes without drop bars. My touring road bike has moustache bars on them. I have the Nashbar ones with more flare at the ends than the traditional 'stache bars. Google one if you've never seen them... they look like a marriage between albatross bars and drop bars, sort of. Like drop bars if you grabbed the drops and bent them outwards, so you have more "city bike-ish" wheelbarrow grip. If you ride with them traditionally, with the flare dropping a bit, they give you a lower position (not as low as drops) with a great wide grip... this is great for climbing as you can still keep great control over the bike. Or you can even flip them so the flare comes up, kind of like albatross bars, giving you a very upright position.
This is really what it comes down to. We have very limited road design here in the States. We've relied on street signs to keep people driving the way we feel they should drive, and this is a losing battle. Like anything else, people won't follow laws that they feel aren't necessary. When people feel safe driving 50mph in a 40, guess what? They're going to drive 50 in a 40.
Like anywhere else in America, speeding here is pretty common because of nice, wide, open streets. Except on a few streets in town. The main one is a 30mph street... when it is empty, people might go 35. When it is even mildly busy, most people are actually going under the speed limit (around 25mph), even though they have the ability to go much faster. Why? Because that's what feels comfortable for people on that street. You have a street with a narrow driving area and lots of parallel parking and many small businesses with a narrow footprint along the street. There are also planters along the side of the street where there is no parking, and a center-left turn lane. This means there is constantly pedestrian traffic, car doors opening, and narrow lane of travel. All this leads to drivers feeling, all on their own, like they're driving too fast of they are driving over 30mph. It's uncomfortable for drivers, so they don't do it.
There is no bike lane on this particular street, but as traffic moves so slowly, it isn't a problem (we have lots of bikelanes elsewhere that are really useful).
That's the key to good road design. If you're relying on a sign to get people to act how you want them to, you've already lost.
Like anywhere else in America, speeding here is pretty common because of nice, wide, open streets. Except on a few streets in town. The main one is a 30mph street... when it is empty, people might go 35. When it is even mildly busy, most people are actually going under the speed limit (around 25mph), even though they have the ability to go much faster. Why? Because that's what feels comfortable for people on that street. You have a street with a narrow driving area and lots of parallel parking and many small businesses with a narrow footprint along the street. There are also planters along the side of the street where there is no parking, and a center-left turn lane. This means there is constantly pedestrian traffic, car doors opening, and narrow lane of travel. All this leads to drivers feeling, all on their own, like they're driving too fast of they are driving over 30mph. It's uncomfortable for drivers, so they don't do it.
There is no bike lane on this particular street, but as traffic moves so slowly, it isn't a problem (we have lots of bikelanes elsewhere that are really useful).
That's the key to good road design. If you're relying on a sign to get people to act how you want them to, you've already lost.
Exactly. One of the things that make cycling in the Netherlands appealing to a wider demographic are the abundance of two-way bike paths and protected bike lanes. You see high numbers of women and young people over there biking everyday as a form of transportation because its very safe for them to do so. The cyclists are well separated from the vehicle traffic.
But I wouldn't want my wife or my kid riding a bike on the side of a busy six lane arterial with car traffic whizzing by them at 30-40mph or more. Which would be terrifying for them, and for me. On American roads you're lucky just to get a painted bike lane, much less a separated one. That's not good enough. The lack of quality infrastructure won't help to make cycling appealing to a wider audience (ie: women), only to the hardcore male road biker type. Because you gotta be really fast to avoid getting run over by a truck or something I guess.
Last edited by northernlights; 07-07-13 at 06:10 AM.
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But why would I want to go through the trouble and expense of swapping out my drop bars for mustache bars just to improve comfort when I can simply by a hybrid that comes with wider handlebars already on it?
As a casual rider why would I want a road bike at all? I'm not training for the cycling Olympics. So I would keep it simple.
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But why would I want to go through the trouble and expense of swapping out my drop bars for mustache bars just to improve comfort when I can simply by a hybrid that comes with wider handlebars already on it? As a casual rider why would I want a road bike at all? I'm not training for the cycling Olympics. So I would keep it simple. Overcomplexity is not how to make cycling appealing to the masses if that's what we're trying to do. By masses I mean men, women and children. Road cycling is appealing really only to a very limited demographic, primarily to certain adult males who are into speed cycling. I rarely if ever see women or kids on road bikes.
Why would you want a road bike? In my case, versatility. With one touring bike, I have a vehicle that makes a good commuter, can haul lots of stuff, and is good for longer rides and vacation touring. They have larger tire clearance for more comfort and light offroading, and are designed to have fenders and tons of ability to haul stuff (rack mounts, etc).
Look, there's nothing wrong with Dutch city bikes. I love them to death, and I think they're really cool. But I think you are unfairly dismissing another kind of cycling you have very little experience with. There is nothing about a road-style frame that makes them any less competent for commuting. I'm not sure why you seem to be insisting on covering everyone else with the same blanket that covers you instead of just chalking it up to people being, ya know, different, and having different needs. You don't do any long-distance riding, so a city bike works for you. Great! I want to do city riding as well as being able to, say, go bike-camping, and I can't afford 2 bikes, so it makes more sense to me to get a bike that does both well.
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It would NOT be so clear to you about the popularity of drop bar bikes, outside of the relatively few weekend club riders and/or high speed enthusiasts such as yourself. Even less popular for most cyclists, including those who have drop bar equipped bikes, is actually riding with hands in the drops, especially within urban traffic.