ToniH. 

Hello again all fellow lug nerds,

For some time I have been a fan of understated lugs of these French builders. I have been reading quite a bit about the history of french constructeurs but I haven't seen any mentions about the origins of these famous lugs. Did they order them casted just to be used by them or where they made by cutting them from a tube? I'm sure someone here knows something about them. Would be great to hear their history.

gugie 

I highly doubt they are cast. Lugs BITD were typically pressed. If you don't get an answer here, try emailing Jan Heine over at Rene Herse (modern re-enactment parts).

merziac

I don't think Jan is responding to any mail from regular folk, the last three queries went unanswered, as did a couple of letters to the editor.

Its probably just me.

Charles Wahl

Are you messing with his absolute certainty that his view about everything is the correct and only one?

merziac

Maaayybee?

Pretty sure I tempered them with a reasonable amount of humility and genuine regard for his steadfast leanings, again, probably just me.

I honestly do find him very entertaining and informative on unsubjective topics and aspects of his adventures.

And while we challenge plenty of his thinking and, uh schtick, he certainly seems to have the ear, attention and respect of many, many wide ranging cycling folks the world over. He seems to get info, stories and history that we would never see otherwise....

And how would we like to have been in on the whole Herse takeover, or just the tire thing that is catching on like wildfire, you can't really argue with results and he's getting them like it or not.

base2 

ToniH.
Have you looked here.

I know it doesn't answer your question of where they came from. But, you can at least buy them & just about any other part you need to make your very own Rene Hearse/ToniH. Bicycle.

I think that says a lot about the company & speaks volumes about why there is such a steadfast almost cult like appreciation for the company & their bikes. Knowing they make everything you need available has indeed inspired thoughts of making my very own.

El Chaba

The Alex Singer lugs to this day are pressed and finished to their final shape by filing. I don’t know the shape of the original blanks.

ToniH. 

Yes thats really cool! I think my next bike will be one that I have designed myself. Even though I don't think the Rene Herse that Jan Heine runs has that much to do with the original Rene Herse... everything they do is still really cool and a big favor for the whole contemporary bicycle culture.

ToniH. 

The new ones seems to come with standard lugs, not the ones that can be found from the vintage models.

Doug Fattic 

Toni, is your question based on curiosity (like where did the lugs come from on the bikes I own?) or the desire to have a frame made (either by yourself or find a builder) with that style of lugs? If it is the 1st reason, you might try asking Mike Kone in Boulder. He was the organizer of the Auburn Bicycle Classic show this last August. He posted advertisements about that event on this forum. He was involved with the recreation of Rene Horse bicycles at one time. Somebody on the Classic Rendezvous list might have the answer too. There was a subject thread on here earlier this year about a guy that has been stationed in Paris and had an Alex Singer made while he hung out at their shop. A PM to him might be fruitful. I always wanted a picture of their fixture that hangs over their alignment table because it is the same concept as the ones I have made. He was able to do that for me.

If you want to have a frame made with Singer or Herse style than I can tell you how to do that either by using blank lugs or a bilaminate style starting with tubes. Several of my framebuilding class students have chosen to design and cut out Singer style lugs for the frame they made in my class. It is interesting to me that this style can have many variations. Here is a picture of a student made frame with lugs in that style cut from blanks. His frame is obviously still in the process of being finished and not ready for painting yet.


A student made frame with lugs in the style of a Singer or Herse that he designed and cut out of Nikko blank lugs.

gugie 

Just noted that your signature shows you have a Herse, a Singer, and a Routens - the "holy trinity" of the classic French constructeurs! Nicely done!

Since we're big on pics here, this is a lug blank (pic from framebuildersupply.com)

Note the 73.5 cast into the lug blank. This is the head tube angle, assuming horizontal top tube.

I built a frame for a friend awhile back, he wanted a 6 degree sloping head tube, I was able to find head tube lugs that worked, but had to "roll my own" on the seat lug. A lot of work, but very satisfying.

El Chaba

If you look through the “ la derniere machine” section of the Singer website, there really is a fair amount of variation in the lugs. Olivier definitely has an Italian style of long point lugs, but even then they sometimes have the widow’s peak at the front of the head tube and sometimes not. On request, he will make the old, classic pattern as well as the classic design that appears as one piece head tube and head lugs. The same is true of the fork crowns.

obrentharris 

Am I missing something here? I see some tubing, two bottom brackets, two fork crowns, some braze-ons, but I don't see any lugs. Is there a button for a second page that I can't seem to find?
Brent

base2 

No. It was an oversight on my part. My brain just saw the bottom brackets, tubes, a bunch of braze-ons, & filled in the upper/lower head tube checkbox.

RH is using Keirin stuff...
Here is a seat tube lug.
Here is a Upper head tube lug & a Lower.
Even if the angles are probably wrong for a RH bike maybe they'd be an ok place to start for someone whose done this kind of thing before? I don't know. I do know I'd like to learn.

I concur with a previous posters supposition that RH is probably counting on his customers to hand file blanks from Framebuiler Supply.

Doug Fattic 

A few years ago I ordered a volume of blank lugs from Japan. I've used the profits to support our Ukraine Bicycle Project. Several of my framebuilding class students have chosen to carve these lugs into a shape similar to what Alex Singer and Rene Herse used on their frames. Here are some pictures showing the steps of how this is done. I use mechanical pencils and artist erasers along with clear rulers and circle and eclipse templates. I start by drawing a design on a template that is twice actual size. The larger size makes it much easier to get the proportions right. There are 2 templates for each lug socket. These templates have graph lines and I print them on Vellum paper. This paper has some translucence and is tough and can be erased multiple times. Because I/we do this a lot, I like to draw on a light board because I can fold the template in half and trace the other side so the 2 sides match. Once I am happy with the design, i reduce the drawing down to actual size on my copy machine. I xerox the design onto label paper that has a sticky side protected by backing paper that can be removed when you are ready to apply it to the lug.

My tools for carving are a lug vise, drill, Dremel tool (their new cutting discs are awesome) and jewelers saw and files. I start by drilling out circular shapes and making access holes for the saw blades. Next I cut close but not exactly on the lines. I remove bulk with the cut off wheel on my Dremel. I file to the line with a selection of small and bigger files. Once the filing to the lines are complete, I remove the pattern to refine the shapes even more.

All of my students have been able to do the whole process without too much difficulty. Of course there are occasions when I need to help - mostly about refining their designs.


These are the papers I use to create the design and apply to the lug. I sometimes cover the design with moving or storage tape to keep my hands from smudging the printed lines.

These are my drawing tools including my light board. The design on the board is the one that I draw twice life size. Before I print onto a shipping label I test the design on plain paper. The utensils on the right are my erasers. They really help defining the lines.

The design is cut out after it is printed on label paper. The backing paper is removed and the design is applied to the lug.

holes are drilled around any circular shapes in the design and also to create any access holes for the saw blades

A jewelers saw is used to cut close to the line.

A variety of small and larger files with different shapes are used to file right up to the line.

obrentharris 

@Doug Fattic thanks for the tutorial. Do you make your blank lugs available to the general public?

I know we can get them elsewhere but it would be nice to support your colleagues in the Ukraine.

Brent

Doug Fattic 

I did until I started to run low. I've pretty much run out of these Japanese lugs now. I had ordered 50 seat of standard size and another 50 sets of OS. I'm debating whether to order more. They require a big order. I still have about 50 sets of Nikko Spearpoint lugs that are very similar to the lugs that Trek used back in the 70's. The shape is also similar to old pressed Cinelli lugs except nicer. Nikko bulge formed their lugs so there wasn't a welded seam like the most of the lugs made in Europe before investment casting. The other thing I liked about Nikko lugs was that they are much easier to change angles than IC lugs.

By the way, if you email me, I can send you much more complete instructions that come from a chapter in my framebuilding class manual. The one I wrote above is a very short Cliff notes version just to get the idea of how it is done.

ToniH. 

Thanks! I think its a bit easier when living in europe to find these. It has been interesting to try these bikes and inspect how they are made. Still they are all made to some other person in a different era so there are some things on all of them that bugs me. Next my plan is to visit a professional bike fitter and try to find oit what would be an ideal geometry for a randonneur for my body. Then I will decide if one of these could be made to work as an ideal randonneur with some changes or will I take what I have learned from these and desing a completely new frame.

Thats nice, If I decide to go my way with a new frame, I will look into these!

ToniH. 

Thanks for sharing this! Thats amazing. I wish I could take your course at somepoint in my life. For the next frame I think I will have to just design it myself and try to find someone who would be willing to braze it since I dont have space to do any welding at least yet.

Doug Fattic 

ToniH, I'm surprised more people don't realize the advantages of getting a truly custom frame/bicycle. One that is designed around their fit points and of course with lighter steel tubing. The advantages of light tubing is not about weight but rather how the bike feels. I could easily tell the riding difference between 2 exact frames except one has light 7/4/7 tubing. Rene Herse was famous for using really light tubing that contributed to its ride quality.

Let me do another quick tutorial on bike fit and frame design. Most bike fits are based on improving performance - getting more speed in a competitive environment. Not everybody wants to go as fast as possible but rather be comfortable on any ride but especially longer ones. Instead of being more aerodynamic, some prefer sitting a bit more upright and having their weight more balanced over the pedals. A common preference is sitting slightly further back with the result it takes more weight off of their hands. That usually requires a swallower seat angle than the common 73º.

The 1st step in designing a non-racing frame is to do a proper fit. It isn't all that complicated on a stationary fitting bike. I've got several. This fit should be on the same saddle and handlebars the student/customer is going to chose for his new bicycle. Once the seat/handlebar/bottom bracket relationship is established, I recreate that same position with the same saddle and stem on my Ukrainian made laser cut and etched fixture. This allows me to adjust the pieces that represent the main tubes to meet those points. I much prefer using this system over any other way. This allows me to adjust every variable and see life size if everything looks proportional. I'll post a couple of pictures below to show the process.

It is possible to have a frame made using the process you suggested. I've done this collaboration with some of my colleagues. It is possible for you to do your own lug design and carving. Most builders would want to be part of the design process. .



Using a fitting bike to establish a person's position.

Using my Ukrainian fixture to design a frame around a person's bicycle position. The same position that was established during a fitting.

ToniH. 

I would love to hear your take on top tube lenght. Since I feel that shouldn’t a bike that has the bars higher, as I prefer them, have a longer top tube also. Since bringing the handlebars higher it brings them closer, and also its easier to reach things that are in front of you. I’ll add a picture from rivendell reader to explain it better:




Heres the full article:
https://www.rivbike.com/pages/the-top-tube-ruse

So my question is, should a randonneur have a longer top tube (I don’t ride in the break hoods) than a typical racing bike? And how much should the bars be lower than the saddle? Or would even bars on the saddle level work?

merziac

@Doug Fattic

@ToniH.," I'm surprised more people don't realize the advantages of getting a truly custom frame/bicycle. One that is designed around their fit points and of course with lighter steel tubing. The advantages of light tubing is not about weight but rather how the bike feels."

Me too, and more than a little disappointed.

You and your many like minded colleagues fantastic work can not be overestimated.

Great value for all the reasons we love this cycling endeavor and much more.

But only if they let you do what you do best, many that do go there seem to often want something that hampers the builders ability to work their process and create the optimal frame that they are paying for.

I often see buyers that think they are paying to dictate how it is built and don't truly trust the process or realize they are paying for your expertise to do what you do for the greatest outcome to be had.

merziac

^^^^ Now, all that being said, I had a great experience with my wants and needs as I asked about several things that I wanted and Dave was happy to figure it all out for what became a fantastic outcome.

I trusted him implicitly and had a great experience working with him and could not be happier.

TiCycles Strawberry by Dave Levy,

A bit shorter to accommodate me to the end of the road and extended HT to get the bars way up where I wanted them for now and then.

650b fork crowns clearanced for 700c, no small feat but turned out great.

Rides fantastic and I couldn't be happier, well worth every cent.