Is it normal wheels go out of true after a fall?
#76
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Ran over a really bad bump, next time I knew I was falling on the drive side, handlebars took most of the brunt, RD had some scratches, steering went out of alignment, but I still could continue 150km after the fall.
Checked my bike by turning it upside down today and realized both wheels are slightly out of true, not sure how could this be given the handlebar took most of the brunt when kissing the tarmac..
Checked my bike by turning it upside down today and realized both wheels are slightly out of true, not sure how could this be given the handlebar took most of the brunt when kissing the tarmac..
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#77
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But anyway I don't have a problem if you want to change the stick to a different object. The physics are all the same. However when you say you apply force to the broom, it sounds like you're saying you're using both hands. One hand at the end of the handle, a second hand in the middle of the handle. That's not accurately translating the scenario I gave you. I told you you could only apply force to the top point.
If you didn't hold the middle of the broom, but instead only pushed down on a LEANING broom at the very top of the handle with your palm, (1) would the bristles still ALWAYS collapse in the same direction, under your belief system? Or would it collapse randomly in either direction every time your try? (2) If you think it will always collapse in one direction, which direction is that? Concave side or convex side toward the ground?
Please answer the labeled questions.
Please answer the labeled questions.
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
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Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
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#78
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Damn it all to hell you guys, first I had pasta for supper, but now I need to sweep the bloody kitchen floor!!!
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#79
Senior Member
Sorry for leaving you hanging, I'm back from a climbing trip.
So now you admit it is impossible to predict the way the bristles would collapse. But earlier you were adamantly against this with the spaghetti, even though it's the exact same scenario. Glad I could help you see the light on this. Now let's move on to the next part:
Yes, of course there is a centripetal force but you forgot something. Let's say you are taking a left corner. You are turning left but your inertia wants to go straight. Your inertial is pushing rightward. That's the force you believe is bending the wheel. But let me explain the part you tragically forgot:
At the same time you are turning left, your entire bike is also leaned to the left. Since you are leaned to the left, the force of gravity naturally imparts a leftward force on you as it pulls you downward.
The leftward force originating from gravity perfectly cancels out the rightward force originating from your inertia wanting to keep going straight. Due to this perfect cancellation, there is no lateral force as far as the bike is concerned. It is zero.
But why is this cancellation so miraculously perfectly balanced? You ask? Because when you were 6 years old learning to ride a bike, you trained your inner ear and brain to send constant micro-corrections to your hands. That's how balancing on a bike works. This is why learning to ride a bike takes time. If you screw up perfectly canceling out the centripetal force against the leaning gravity force, your turn fails and you fall flat on your face.
Since the left and right forces are perfectly cancelled out when you turn, the force experienced by your bike frame and wheels is purely axial.
Are we clear now?
This is dead simple to observe. Winter is coming. Pay attention to how your snot drips off your nose when you turn. It's going to hit your headset every time. It's not going to fling off to the side after it departs your nose. If you live in a warm climate, hold a plumb bob in your teeth while you turn. You'll notice that it always stays axial with your wheels.
If the broom is new with no previous curve imparted through use, the bristles would collapse in every direction. If you did it over and over again with the same broom, a pattern would eventually develop but that is because the damage of the initial collapse would introduce a weak spot that would bend in the same place upon each subsequent collapse. But if a new broom is used each time, predicting the direction of collapse of any individual bristle would be impossible.
At the same time you are turning left, your entire bike is also leaned to the left. Since you are leaned to the left, the force of gravity naturally imparts a leftward force on you as it pulls you downward.
The leftward force originating from gravity perfectly cancels out the rightward force originating from your inertia wanting to keep going straight. Due to this perfect cancellation, there is no lateral force as far as the bike is concerned. It is zero.
But why is this cancellation so miraculously perfectly balanced? You ask? Because when you were 6 years old learning to ride a bike, you trained your inner ear and brain to send constant micro-corrections to your hands. That's how balancing on a bike works. This is why learning to ride a bike takes time. If you screw up perfectly canceling out the centripetal force against the leaning gravity force, your turn fails and you fall flat on your face.
Since the left and right forces are perfectly cancelled out when you turn, the force experienced by your bike frame and wheels is purely axial.
Are we clear now?
This is dead simple to observe. Winter is coming. Pay attention to how your snot drips off your nose when you turn. It's going to hit your headset every time. It's not going to fling off to the side after it departs your nose. If you live in a warm climate, hold a plumb bob in your teeth while you turn. You'll notice that it always stays axial with your wheels.
Last edited by Yan; 10-03-22 at 05:16 PM.
#80
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Most wheels are made to be as light as possible and not as strong as possible. For touring I made my own wheels and used 4 cross lacing to make them as durable as possible. A lot depends on the tire in terms of the protection it can provide for the rim. Different strengths of spokes and different designs that are more or less likely to break. The easiest place to cut corners for a bike company is with the spoke and rims that are used.
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I disagree. Many mid-grade road bikes out there come with 32 or 28 spoke wheels laced to heavy but cheap hubs with middle weight rims and straight gauge spokes. They are going for cheap, not light OR strong. Aftermarket wheels, on the other hand, are built for specific purposes. While most are lightweight for racing, there are tons of 32 DB spoke 3 cross wheels out there for durability, 40 spoke 4 cross wheels for tandems, etc.
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#82
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Yes, of course there is a centripetal force but you forgot something. Let's say you are taking a left corner. You are turning left but your inertia wants to go straight. Your inertial is pushing rightward. That's the force you believe is bending the wheel. But let me explain the part you tragically forgot:
And I “tragically forgot” nothing.
At the same time you are turning left, your entire bike is also leaned to the left. Since you are leaned to the left, the force of gravity naturally imparts a leftward force on you as it pulls you downward.
The leftward force originating from gravity perfectly cancels out the rightward force originating from your inertia wanting to keep going straight. Due to this perfect cancellation, there is no lateral force as far as the bike is concerned. It is zero.
Meanwhile, at the contact patch, the displaced center of gravity is leveraging the rim upwards as gravity pulls the bike downward.
But why is this cancellation so miraculously perfectly balanced? You ask? Because when you were 6 years old learning to ride a bike, you trained your inner ear and brain to send constant micro-corrections to your hands. That's how balancing on a bike works. This is why learning to ride a bike takes time. If you screw up perfectly canceling out the centripetal force against the leaning gravity force, your turn fails and you fall flat on your face.
Since the left and right forces are perfectly cancelled out when you turn, the force experienced by your bike frame and wheels is purely axial.
Are we clear now?
This is dead simple to observe. Winter is coming. Pay attention to how your snot drips off your nose when you turn. It's going to hit your headset every time. It's not going to fling off to the side after it departs your nose. If you live in a warm climate, hold a plumb bob in your teeth while you turn. You'll notice that it always stays axial with your wheels.
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Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#83
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Oh gods! Here we go again. I am the one who said it is impossible to predict the way something collapses. You’ve said “[the spaghetti] always buckles on the same side of its strand no matter which direction you lean it.” I have always maintained that it is impossible to predict which way something will collapse.
I see you tried to cheat the argument by misquoting me. Where you quoted me I was talking about vertical spaghetti buckling due to built in weakness (which you also admitted in your last post fyi). In my most recent challenge to you where you finally admitted your mistake, we were talking about a leaning situation.
This is about frame of reference. You are turning left and your bike is leaning left. Your nose is to the left of the headset. The moment the snot leaves your nose it's going to begin flying in a straight line along the tangent. It will no longer be taking a curved path. Meanwhile you are continuing your curve left. By the time the snot has dropped near the headset, the bike frame has curved left to meet it. As you can see, from the perspective of a person standing nearby, the snot is traveling perpendicular toward the ground, but from the frame of reference of the cyclist, the snot is falling diagonally toward the centerline of the frame. We are analyzing forces on the bike, so we have to analyze in the frame of reference of the bike, not in the frame of reference of a stationary outside observer. Understand now?
In the same way, the bike (including the wheel) is experiencing a purely "downward" force, where the "downward" is not perpendicular to the ground, but instead leaned at an angle. It is 100% downward in its own frame of reference. Since the force is completely in plane with the wheel, there is no sideways force trying to bend the wheel into a taco.
Were you able to follow along with my explanation? I tried to make it clear.
Are you willing to take a bet? If you agree I will go out and make a video the next day. Whichever one of us loses agrees to sit his dumb ass down.
I have a bike with aerobars. I can use the aerobars to hang the plumb bob instead of my teeth. This way it will be impossible for me to move my head around and cheat. I will then ride in a circle and record the result with my phone. We will be able to see whether the plumb bob falls perpendicularly toward the ground as you claim, or falls toward the tire (bike center line) as I claim.
What is your response? Accept the bet or not?
Last edited by Yan; 10-04-22 at 07:39 AM.
#84
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This is because that spaghetti already has a built in imperfection, an existing slight bend in it, so no matter what you do it's just going to bend in the same way as that existing bend. This is buckling. There is no external lateral force here. Your entire input force is axial. If you take a different spaghetti, that second spaghetti will have a different imperfection so it will buckle in it's own way. But it's always the same. You will never find a spaghetti that buckles in a 360 degree random direction each time you press down, because such a theoretically perfect spaghetti does not exist.
I see you tried to cheat the argument by misquoting me. Where you quoted me I was talking about vertical spaghetti buckling due to built in weakness (which you also admitted in your last post fyi). In my most recent challenge to you where you finally admitted your mistake, we were talking about a leaning situation.
This is about frame of reference. You are turning left and your bike is leaning left. Your nose is to the left of the headset. The moment the snot leaves your nose it's going to begin flying in a straight line along the tangent. It will no longer be taking a curved path. Meanwhile you are continuing your curve left. By the time the snot has dropped near the headset, the bike frame has curved left to meet it. As you can see, from the perspective of a person standing nearby, the snot is traveling perpendicular toward the ground, but from the frame of reference of the cyclist, the snot is falling diagonally toward the centerline of the frame. We are analyzing forces on the bike, so we have to analyze in the frame of reference of the bike, not in the frame of reference of a stationary outside observer. Understand now?
In the same way, the bike (including the wheel) is experiencing a purely "downward" force, where the "downward" is not perpendicular to the ground, but instead leaned at an angle. It is 100% downward in its own frame of reference. Since the force is completely in plane with the wheel, there is no sideways force trying to bend the wheel into a taco.
Were you able to follow along with my explanation? I tried to make it clear.
I'm glad you stated your belief in such a clear way. Now you cannot back away from it. Let us cut through all your self-confused mumble jumbo and end the argument right here. You're saying that if you hold a plumb bob in your teeth while riding in a circle, the plumb bob will not fall toward the headset. You are saying it will fall perpendicular to the ground.
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Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
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Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#85
Senior Member
Yes, I knew you would cop out of the bet challenge in a cowardly way, because that would prove you wrong and you don't like to admit it.
First of all, stop with the repeated "EWW" because it's giving me the creeps. This is just a hypothetical discussion. What's with the this exaggerated child language? Are you a teen girl?
I bolded the part above where you are talking about the behavior of the bob when you drop it, before it becomes tight. I underlined the words after that to prove that you are talking about the freefalling phase. You are not talking about after the line become tight. Don't try to wiggle out of this with some lame excuses. Be a man and own the things that you wrote. Anyway as we established, at this point the line is not involved. The bob is just an independently free falling object. You say "if dropped, it would fall down and away from the corner". But wait, two posts ago your claim was that a dropped object would fall perpendicular to the ground (see quote blow). What happened? It's not straight down perpendicular to the ground anymore? It will "fall away from the corner" now? You changed your mind and there IS an angle now after all??? Did the laws of physics change between yesterday and today in your brain? Hello???
Have a look at the two bolded statements above and realize how hilarious it is that you made a complete 180 without even realizing it. Let me explain to you why you are posting these contradictory statements that change from one post to the next: you have an intuitive understanding of how objects behave; however, at some point in your past you acquired false knowledge about physics. Now that you are confronted by the paradox between your intuition and your false knowledge, your brain is incapable of processing the conflict. You are gyrating. We are witnessing your unraveling in real time.
Anything else you would like to add before I check out of this thread and leave you in your humiliation? I got burnt by your psycho gaslighting last time so this time I will be sure to kick you a few times while you are down.
A plumb would be different from a free snot body (EWWW!) because it is constrained and attached to the bike. It is a semi-free body and the angle at which if falls is going to be highly influenced by the weight of the bob. If dropped, it would fall down and away from the corner. Once it hits the end of its line, it is no longer a free body and will take an angle but that angle wouldn’t necessarily be the same as that of the bicycle.
I bolded the part above where you are talking about the behavior of the bob when you drop it, before it becomes tight. I underlined the words after that to prove that you are talking about the freefalling phase. You are not talking about after the line become tight. Don't try to wiggle out of this with some lame excuses. Be a man and own the things that you wrote. Anyway as we established, at this point the line is not involved. The bob is just an independently free falling object. You say "if dropped, it would fall down and away from the corner". But wait, two posts ago your claim was that a dropped object would fall perpendicular to the ground (see quote blow). What happened? It's not straight down perpendicular to the ground anymore? It will "fall away from the corner" now? You changed your mind and there IS an angle now after all??? Did the laws of physics change between yesterday and today in your brain? Hello???
Anything else you would like to add before I check out of this thread and leave you in your humiliation? I got burnt by your psycho gaslighting last time so this time I will be sure to kick you a few times while you are down.
Last edited by Yan; 10-04-22 at 12:10 PM.
#86
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You guys are great! I completely understand what cyccommute is saying…but BT is the one who is more correct in the main. BT…it appears you are mixing words some times (as I read it) —. You and Cyccommute actually are both saying the object drops straight down…but you are clarifying (correctly I believe) that the bike is turning INTO that object’s perpendicular drop so RELATIVE to the rider, the dropped object “moves away” to the right (if the bike is turning left.). I think cyccommute agrees with that, he just explains it differently.
#87
Senior Member
You guys are great! I completely understand what cyccommute is saying…but BT is the one who is more correct in the main. BT…it appears you are mixing words some times (as I read it) —. You and Cyccommute actually are both saying the object drops straight down…but you are clarifying (correctly I believe) that the bike is turning INTO that object’s perpendicular drop so RELATIVE to the rider, the dropped object “moves away” to the right (if the bike is turning left.). I think cyccommute agrees with that, he just explains it differently.
Cyccommute remembers just enough physics vocabulary from his school days to fake an imitation of understanding, but he forgot all the rules of how the words are put together. The result is a total clusterf***. He's like a kid who remembers + - × ÷ but forgot about order of operations. Here is a case of knowing 50% being worse than knowing nothing at all. At least if you know nothing then you know you know nothing. When you know just barely enough to cause you to falsely believe that you know, but in reality you actually don't know... this is just tragic... Combine that with false confidence... it's game over right there.
I'm not saying he's doing it intentionally. I know he genuinely believes he is right. There are many areas in life where conviction goes a long way. Unfortunately this isn't one of them. There's no real latitude for interpretation in this kind of grad school science. At first I thought he knew the concepts but was just applying vocabulary incorrectly. But at one point I brought up the velodrome example, and when he responded incorrectly I knew immediately that it was the other way around. He knew the vocabulary but didn't understand the concepts. The worst possible combination. Right there I figured he was probably beyond salvage. It's easy to teach A kids because they are stars. It's easy to teach F kids because they know nothing and you simply teach everything from scratch. But when you get to the C and D kids... that's what drives people to quit teaching. There is an insurmountable valley of ghoulish unmalleability here, it's soul crushing to watch let alone participate in.
That's my verdict. Sorry if I offended anyone.
Last edited by Yan; 10-04-22 at 03:04 PM.
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Having followed this thread off and on it seems to me that Yan is the only one who is disrespecting the other with his insulting references to Stuart's abilities. This is, of course, independent to the discussion or the logic used. It's too bad that some feel the need to describe their debating opponent with such characterizations, just like our current political state here in the USA. At some point one gets tired of reading this type of interaction. Andy (who in his long ago debate class learned to never attack the other's character, just their logic and facts)
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Spaghetti, bristles, snot... this has been entertaining.
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This thread need less arguing and more spaghetti and bikes with arrows drawn on them.
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Ceteris paribus, thinking about the physics of riding while cornering will take the rider's full attention off of the road ahead, causing him to hit a bump and crash which will result in wheels that are out of true. Ergo, physics damages rims! Caveat Emptor!
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You are 100% correct that I'm mixing words. But do you know why? I'm a veritable wordsmith here trying every which way to rephrase these simple explanations over and over again, with the bleak hope that one of the ways will get through to him. Inevitably to an outside listener I'm going to sound repetitive. But one hopes... It seems I have not been successful. At this point I doubt I will ever be.
Cyccommute remembers just enough physics vocabulary from his school days to fake an imitation of understanding, but he forgot all the rules of how the words are put together. The result is a total clusterf***. He's like a kid who remembers + - × ÷ but forgot about order of operations. Here is a case of knowing 50% being worse than knowing nothing at all. At least if you know nothing then you know you know nothing. When you know just barely enough to cause you to falsely believe that you know, but in reality you actually don't know... this is just tragic... Combine that with false confidence... it's game over right there.
I'm not saying he's doing it intentionally. I know he genuinely believes he is right. There are many areas in life where conviction goes a long way. Unfortunately this isn't one of them. There's no real latitude for interpretation in this kind of grad school science. At first I thought he knew the concepts but was just applying vocabulary incorrectly. But at one point I brought up the velodrome example, and when he responded incorrectly I knew immediately that it was the other way around. He knew the vocabulary but didn't understand the concepts. The worst possible combination. Right there I figured he was probably beyond salvage. It's easy to teach A kids because they are stars. It's easy to teach F kids because they know nothing and you simply teach everything from scratch. But when you get to the C and D kids... that's what drives people to quit teaching. There is an insurmountable valley of ghoulish unmalleability here, it's soul crushing to watch let alone participate in.
That's my verdict. Sorry if I offended anyone.
Cyccommute remembers just enough physics vocabulary from his school days to fake an imitation of understanding, but he forgot all the rules of how the words are put together. The result is a total clusterf***. He's like a kid who remembers + - × ÷ but forgot about order of operations. Here is a case of knowing 50% being worse than knowing nothing at all. At least if you know nothing then you know you know nothing. When you know just barely enough to cause you to falsely believe that you know, but in reality you actually don't know... this is just tragic... Combine that with false confidence... it's game over right there.
I'm not saying he's doing it intentionally. I know he genuinely believes he is right. There are many areas in life where conviction goes a long way. Unfortunately this isn't one of them. There's no real latitude for interpretation in this kind of grad school science. At first I thought he knew the concepts but was just applying vocabulary incorrectly. But at one point I brought up the velodrome example, and when he responded incorrectly I knew immediately that it was the other way around. He knew the vocabulary but didn't understand the concepts. The worst possible combination. Right there I figured he was probably beyond salvage. It's easy to teach A kids because they are stars. It's easy to teach F kids because they know nothing and you simply teach everything from scratch. But when you get to the C and D kids... that's what drives people to quit teaching. There is an insurmountable valley of ghoulish unmalleability here, it's soul crushing to watch let alone participate in.
That's my verdict. Sorry if I offended anyone.
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oh, come on…… you don’t see the irony and humor in the juxtaposition of Yan’s consistent understanding of physics followed by his incongruous, disconnected phrases like “an insurmountable valley of ghoulish unmalleability” ? I mean…how does one exactly ‘surmount’ a ‘valley’ ? or, extending, how would you ‘surmount’ the ‘unmalleable’? Yan is having fun.
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Yes, I knew you would cop out of the bet challenge in a cowardly way, because that would prove you wrong and you don't like to admit it.
First of all, stop with the repeated "EWW" because it's giving me the creeps. This is just a hypothetical discussion. What's with the this exaggerated child language? Are you a teen girl?
First of all, stop with the repeated "EWW" because it's giving me the creeps. This is just a hypothetical discussion. What's with the this exaggerated child language? Are you a teen girl?
Anything else you would like to add before I check out of this thread and leave you in your humiliation? I got burnt by your psycho gaslighting last time so this time I will be sure to kick you a few times while you are down.
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Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#97
Mad bike riding scientist
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You guys are great! I completely understand what cyccommute is saying…but BT is the one who is more correct in the main. BT…it appears you are mixing words some times (as I read it) —. You and Cyccommute actually are both saying the object drops straight down…but you are clarifying (correctly I believe) that the bike is turning INTO that object’s perpendicular drop so RELATIVE to the rider, the dropped object “moves away” to the right (if the bike is turning left.). I think cyccommute agrees with that, he just explains it differently.
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Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Likes For cyccommute:
#98
Go Ride!
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Lol…i was going to comment that water is not as stringy as….but you are right…better we let this go….
#99
Senior Member
To quote the great Foghorn Leghorn, “I say, I say, it’s a joke, son!”. Trying to keep it light.
Please, check out of this thread. I assure you that you are not leaving me humiliated. Frankly, I tire of your constantly dragging the discussions in every direction possible while never addressing the issue. From long, long, long, ago, the wheel is subjected to lateral force. Period.
Please, check out of this thread. I assure you that you are not leaving me humiliated. Frankly, I tire of your constantly dragging the discussions in every direction possible while never addressing the issue. From long, long, long, ago, the wheel is subjected to lateral force. Period.
I've tried to child-explain these concepts to you six different ways to no avail. When at first you didn't get it, I dropped down to lower grade level material. Now I have realized you don't know the lower grade material either. Do I have to start dipping into elementary school territory?
Yeah, I'm done. As I said to Sonofamechanic above, if you don't get it any now, you're never going to get it. Unfortunately you are just not there mentally. Dialogue with you is like trying to SAT tutor a kid who skipped grades 7 to 11. He is simply not equipped. Yet somehow he is convinced he is college material. You are a total farce.
Maybe check out some adult re-education courses on www.coursera.org. Since it's a robot taught web course with no human behind it, it will have infinite patience with you, unlike me. Good luck. You're a chemist? Do us all a favor and stay with chemistry.
Last edited by Yan; 10-06-22 at 10:52 AM.
#100
Mad bike riding scientist
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Cyccommute remember just enough physics vocabulary from his school days to fake an imitation of understanding, but he forgot all the rules of how the words are put together. The result is a total clusterf***. He's like a kid who remembers + - × ÷ but forgot about order of operations. Here is a case of knowing 50% being worse than knowing nothing at all. At least if you know nothing then you know you know nothing. When you know just barely enough to cause you to falsely believe that you know, but in reality you actually don't know... this is just tragic... Combine that with false confidence... it's game over right there.
I'm not saying he's doing it intentionally. I know he genuinely believes he is right. There are many areas in life where conviction goes a long way. Unfortunately this isn't one of them. There's no real latitude for interpretation in this kind of grad school science. At first I thought he knew the concepts but was just applying vocabulary incorrectly. But at one point I brought up the velodrome example, and when he responded incorrectly I knew immediately that it was the other way around. He knew the vocabulary but didn't understand the concepts. The worst possible combination. Right there I figured he was probably beyond salvage. It's easy to teach A kids because they are stars. It's easy to teach F kids because they know nothing and you simply teach everything from scratch. But when you get to the C and D kids... that's what drives people to quit teaching. There is an insurmountable valley of ghoulish unmalleability here, it's soul crushing to watch let alone participate in.
That's my verdict. Sorry if I offended anyone.
I'm not saying he's doing it intentionally. I know he genuinely believes he is right. There are many areas in life where conviction goes a long way. Unfortunately this isn't one of them. There's no real latitude for interpretation in this kind of grad school science. At first I thought he knew the concepts but was just applying vocabulary incorrectly. But at one point I brought up the velodrome example, and when he responded incorrectly I knew immediately that it was the other way around. He knew the vocabulary but didn't understand the concepts. The worst possible combination. Right there I figured he was probably beyond salvage. It's easy to teach A kids because they are stars. It's easy to teach F kids because they know nothing and you simply teach everything from scratch. But when you get to the C and D kids... that's what drives people to quit teaching. There is an insurmountable valley of ghoulish unmalleability here, it's soul crushing to watch let alone participate in.
That's my verdict. Sorry if I offended anyone.
Look, I understand what you are trying to say about “converts any lateral force into perfectly straight down force as far as the bike is concerned” and that the forces are balanced. But just because a force is balanced by another force, doesn’t mean the force doesn’t exist. The whole “for every action (force) in nature there is an equal and opposite reaction” means that the force has to be balanced. It it weren’t or if you exceed the force, the bike and rider fly off the corner.
Can you agree that if the bicycle and rider are riding straight down the road, that the bike and rider are experiencing the force of gravity? They aren’t moving up or down but they are still under the influence of the gravitational pull of the earth, right? Because of the way a tensioned spoked wheel is built, the rim right above the contact patch is being deflected upwards by the loading of the bicycle rider and weight, giving the rim a (very) slight flattening at the contact patch.
Now the rider goes into a corner. The friction on the tire keeps the tire from sliding off the corner and the centripetal force pulls the wheel around the corner. The bike leans over because of the lateral force on the wheel. Like riding in a straight line, the forces are balanced but the forces are still there. At the contact patch, the slight flattening of the rim is now at an angle to the ground and turns into a slight bending of the rim upward. The bicycle wheel being a tensioned structure isn’t rigid like other wheels with rigid spokes (or rigid structure). In a rigid wheel, the tire does the deflection. To be clear, the bicycle tire also deflects some but the rim isn’t rigidly attached to the spokes and can this bend as well. The whole wheel doesn’t bend. Only a very small section at the contact patch will experience bending.
To be clear, this bending isn’t usually enough to cause the rim to permanently deform. If the spokes of the wheel are over tensioned and the wheel experiences enough force, it could go into the sinusoidal wave form we call a “taco” but most of the time it doesn’t.
And where the hell did you bring up a velodrome example?
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Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Last edited by cyccommute; 10-06-22 at 11:19 AM.